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Leucine, Whey, and number of scoops

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  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Originally posted by sila View Post
    So the end result is: we don't know how MPS connects to hypertrophy. But we do know how consumption of protein affects hypertrophy. We can try to optimize MPS if we want, but still the most important thing is to get enough protein daily.
    No, we do know how dietary protein intake is related to hypertrophy. We know that you need to get the recommended amount, but the frequency bit hasn't been established as something important yet.

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  • sila
    replied
    So the end result is: we don't know how MPS connects to hypertrophy. But we do know how consumption of protein affects hypertrophy. We can try to optimize MPS if we want, but still the most important thing is to get enough protein daily.

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  • 4l3x
    replied
    Thank you for the response Dr. Feigenbaum

    seems like worrying about the interaction between protein intake and MPB would mostly be time wasted on useless detail.

    Stay healthy

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  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Originally posted by 4l3x View Post
    I realize the answer to this question doesn't necessarily affect protein intake recommendations but: does eating protein reduce muscle protein breakdown? Furthermore, is there a dose response relationship that indicates that eating protein in excess of what will immediately contribute to MPS still acutely reduces MPB?
    Yes to the first question, kinda. Second question, no.

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  • 4l3x
    replied
    I realize the answer to this question doesn't necessarily affect protein intake recommendations but: does eating protein reduce muscle protein breakdown? Furthermore, is there a dose response relationship that indicates that eating protein in excess of what will immediately contribute to MPS still acutely reduces MPB?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Excellent

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  • Smokes
    replied
    Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post

    We don't know for sure, as the studies haven't really been done looking at general jackitude and meal frequency. That said, we have some data showing that <3 meals a day and >5 meals a day both increase risk of obesity. It also intuits that stimulating MPS a few times a day is probably good compared to once, but again, I'm not sure there are any differences long term.
    It does seem, intuitively, more would be slightly better but in the absence of data, will focus on staying between 3 and 5 and not sweat details about 4 vs 5. Thanks!

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  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Originally posted by sila View Post

    Hehe, yes, please! I've been wrecking my head about this. I'm beginning to think that I completely misunderstand how the whole process works since I seem to be missing some key part of the puzzle.


    Just to clarify: I didn't say that I'll be eating 100g of protein per day. I can eat, let's say, 250 grams of protein total daily. That's 50 grams of protein per meal for 5 meals a day (spaced at 3 hours each).

    Each meal is exactly the same: it consists of 1 scoop of whey for 20 grams of protein, then the remaining 30 grams of protein is filled with vegetables, grains, meat, etc...

    However, since that 20 gram of protein whey scoop already has 3 grams of leucine, what happens to the rest of the protein (the 30 grams extra)? If it is not part of MPS, then what good is it?

    The extra 30g is either used for fuel via oxidation or contributes to a future MPS event.

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  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Originally posted by Smokes View Post
    Jordan,

    To clarify #3--is that a general statement? Could a person go to 1? I thought there was potentially a small benefit to the 5 times a day approach over 2, 3, or 4, but that priority wise it was less important than getting the right amount of protein, sleep, appropriate training, etc.
    We don't know for sure, as the studies haven't really been done looking at general jackitude and meal frequency. That said, we have some data showing that <3 meals a day and >5 meals a day both increase risk of obesity. It also intuits that stimulating MPS a few times a day is probably good compared to once, but again, I'm not sure there are any differences long term.

    Leave a comment:


  • sila
    replied
    Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I'm going to make you think about this, Sila.

    Specifically, why is your estimate wrong that you'll only be eating 100g of protein per day, assuming you're eating other foods besides whey to get your carbs and fats in?

    If you weighed more, you'd need more calories to maintain your weight, which means more protein through both concentrated and trace sources.

    Please carefully read the last few posts here.

    -Jordan
    Hehe, yes, please! I've been wrecking my head about this. I'm beginning to think that I completely misunderstand how the whole process works since I seem to be missing some key part of the puzzle.


    Just to clarify: I didn't say that I'll be eating 100g of protein per day. I can eat, let's say, 250 grams of protein total daily. That's 50 grams of protein per meal for 5 meals a day (spaced at 3 hours each).

    Each meal is exactly the same: it consists of 1 scoop of whey for 20 grams of protein, then the remaining 30 grams of protein is filled with vegetables, grains, meat, etc...

    However, since that 20 gram of protein whey scoop already has 3 grams of leucine, what happens to the rest of the protein (the 30 grams extra)? If it is not part of MPS, then what good is it?


    Leave a comment:


  • Smokes
    replied
    Jordan,

    To clarify #3--is that a general statement? Could a person go to 1? I thought there was potentially a small benefit to the 5 times a day approach over 2, 3, or 4, but that priority wise it was less important than getting the right amount of protein, sleep, appropriate training, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    I'm going to make you think about this, Sila.

    Specifically, why is your estimate wrong that you'll only be eating 100g of protein per day, assuming you're eating other foods besides whey to get your carbs and fats in?

    If you weighed more, you'd need more calories to maintain your weight, which means more protein through both concentrated and trace sources.

    Please carefully read the last few posts here.

    -Jordan

    Leave a comment:


  • sila
    replied
    Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Sila,

    No I think there are a few issues with the explanation. I'll try to be as clear as possible here.

    1) All proteins are made up of amino acids. Essential amino acid content in a protein, which includes BCAAs, varies amongst protein sources. In general, it is typically higher in animal-derived proteins and protein supplements than plant-based sources, which sometimes requires higher protein intake to obtain the necessary EAAs to drive MPS.

    2) MPS cannot take place without EAAs.

    3) The refractory period only lasts ~ 2.5- 3 hours, thus we recommend eating every 3-5 hours. There's no difference in eating 3x/day (every 5 hrs) or 5x/day (every 3 hrs)

    4) You may not need 200g of protein per day, depending on your bodyweight. We recommend 1.6-3.1g/kg/day depending on whether you're cutting, bulking, etc. That said, you'll probably need to hit at least 1.6g/kg/day to get the necessary amount of EAAs per meal and per day.
    First, I really appreciate your answers, Jordan!

    I'm just still confused on the numbers.

    So I weigh 200 lbs and I'm currently cutting. 200 lbs is 90 kgs. Let's say I take the lowest recommended amount of 1.6 g/kg/day. That amounts to 144 g of protein per day. If I eat 5 meals at 3 hour intervals and each meal will consist of beef, chicken, or whey, that means I am maximizing my MPS at only ~20g of protein (for the sake of argument, let's say my only protein source is whey). So for 5 meals, that would be 100g of protein. Of course, I can add the extra 44 grams. But if I am already maximizing MPS, what is the benefit?

    And what about if I weighed 250 lbs or even 300 lbs? What if I'm someone like Eddie Hall or Thor? They meet their protein requirements by eating 10,000 calories per day. But how much of that protein is being used for MPS? Is there something else at play here that I am missing?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jordan Feigenbaum
    replied
    Sila,

    No I think there are a few issues with the explanation. I'll try to be as clear as possible here.

    1) All proteins are made up of amino acids. Essential amino acid content in a protein, which includes BCAAs, varies amongst protein sources. In general, it is typically higher in animal-derived proteins and protein supplements than plant-based sources, which sometimes requires higher protein intake to obtain the necessary EAAs to drive MPS.

    2) MPS cannot take place without EAAs.

    3) The refractory period only lasts ~ 2.5- 3 hours, thus we recommend eating every 3-5 hours. There's no difference in eating 3x/day (every 5 hrs) or 5x/day (every 3 hrs)

    4) You may not need 200g of protein per day, depending on your bodyweight. We recommend 1.6-3.1g/kg/day depending on whether you're cutting, bulking, etc. That said, you'll probably need to hit at least 1.6g/kg/day to get the necessary amount of EAAs per meal and per day.

    Leave a comment:


  • sila
    replied
    Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Sila,

    Thanks for the post!

    Our recommendation would be to consume 1.6-3.1g/kg bodyweight/day of protein split up into 3-5 meals.

    Our whey has 3g of leucine per scoop, yes. That said, you'll be consuming plenty of leucine-poor, or better stated- Essential Amino Acid-poor sources of protein from your carb and fat sources. Thus, you'll need to account for these trace proteins in the total daily protein count.

    We would recommend worrying about the total daily protein intake more than anything else.

    We would not recommend eating 10 meals per day.

    -Jordan
    Thank you, Jordan!

    Just to make sure I understand... Protein sources are made up of all types of amino acids. Some of the amino acids are BCAAs and one of those is leucine. Whey protein has ~3g of leucine per scoop which maximizes MPS. After that, there's a 3-5 hour refractory period during which there is no muscle protein synthesis. Thus, there's no need to drink two scoops of whey at a time.

    However, most other foods are not so dense in leucine and I can eat much more than a 20 grams of protein in a meal so that I get my maximum amount (3 grams) of leucine per meal.

    What I am still unclear about is that foods that are usually rich in protein such as chicken and beef, also contain a high amount of leucine. That means each time I eat those, my MPS enters into a refractory period for 3-5 hours. So when I do eat about 200 grams of protein for my recommended total daily protein intake, how much of that is actually being used for muscle protein synthesis? What happens to the other protein that i eat. It just gets stored as energy, right? So then why is the daily recommended intake so high?

    The summary of my confusion is this: it's relatively easy to hit 3g of leucine per meal by eating whey, chicken, beef, etc... With a refractory period of 3-5 hours, it does not seem possible for the 200g of protein that I eat to be used for MPS. A big chunk of it is just used for energy. Then what is the point of me eating 200g of protein?

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