Responding to criticisms of Barbell Medicine's take on vegan protein

[Evanther]

Hi Jordan/Austin, hope you're doing well.

Now that we have folks like Mike Israetel (1) and Greg Nuckols (2) going on the record as disagreeing with Jordan's take that vegans don't need more than 1.6-2.2 g/kg of protein, I thought I would give you guys a direct opportunity to respond.

The main criticisms of Jordan's logic seem to be:

1. Most of the studies Jordan cited in the protein guide article (Banaszek 2019, Hartman 2007, and Babault 2015) compared animal protein with soy or pea protein, but since the pdcaas of both pea and soy is nearly identical to that of animal protein and much higher than that of most vegan protein sources, there is no reason to think that these results would generalize to an ordinary vegan diet, which would have a much lower average pdcaas.

2. Jordan seems to think that as long as a variety of protein sources are consumed, the different foods with different EAA contents will sort of cover for one another throughout the course of a day. Critics have said that this analysis ignores the fact that vegan protein sources are generally short of the same small handful of EAAs (lysine and methionine chief among them). Because of this, it is likely that a typical vegan diet will not succeed in compensating for itself, and vegans will need more total grams of protein to get the same muscle-building/muscle-sparing effect as omnivores from the same total dose of protein.

Thoughts?

Citations:

Not linking to these

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Hi Jordan/Austin, hope you're doing well.

Now that we have folks like Mike Israetel (1) and Greg Nuckols (2) going on the record as disagreeing with Jordan's take that vegans don't need more than 1.6-2.2 g/kg of protein, I thought I would give you guys a direct opportunity to respond.

The main criticisms of Jordan's logic seem to be:

1. Most of the studies Jordan cited in the protein guide article (Banaszek 2019, Hartman 2007, and Babault 2015) compared animal protein with soy or pea protein, but since the pdcaas of both pea and soy is nearly identical to that of animal protein and much higher than that of most vegan protein sources, there is no reason to think that these results would generalize to an ordinary vegan diet, which would have a much lower average pdcaas.

There are additional studies in that article (e.g. Joy et al) and about a dozen other ones showing no difference in outcomes between those with plant-based diets (or supplements) and those consuming mostly animal proteins. Also, no data showing PDCAAS in folks consuming this level of protein matters. Kind of a weird argument to make IMO.

2. Jordan seems to think that as long as a variety of protein sources are consumed, the different foods with different EAA contents will sort of cover for one another throughout the course of a day.
Critics have said that this analysis ignores the fact that vegan protein sources are generally short of the same small handful of EAAs (lysine and methionine chief among them). Because of this, it is likely that a typical vegan diet will not succeed in compensating for itself, and vegans will need more total grams of protein to get the same muscle-building/muscle-sparing effect as omnivores from the same total dose of protein.

That would be a fine criticism and certainly there are ways to eat a lot of protein incorrectly, but there's no real evidence at this level of protein intake that it matters. That's the point. When protein intake is this high, it's enough for both vegans and omnivores. I feel like the article even says that...

A primer on high quality vs low quality protein sources in a vegan diet: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8912849/

Yet another study showing no difference:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3698202/ (this was cited in the article too, but you'll notice the critiques conveniently ignored it. The pdcaas of rice protein is about half of whey btw*)

And another:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10308267/ (mycoprotein's PDCAAS is ~0.9)

In fact, rather than mentally masturbate about mechanisms, you'll note that no criticisms actually show evidence of different outcomes either in an observational study or controlled trial**. Comparatively, the data I cited are on outcomes.

*PDCAAS has many problems and probably shouldn't be used in isolation to evaluate how good a protein is or isn't for diet-induced anabolism.
**As always, outcomes > mechanisms.

Edited to add: I am not sure that the individuals being referred to here and I actually disagree. I cannot confirm or deny that based on the links provided. In any case, I have lots of respect for many in this industry and suspect we likely agree on many topics. On topics we don't agree on, I think it may be useful to rate the confidence level that I hold an opinion in order to give a more complete picture on where I stand. For this particular issue, I am RPE 9 confident that the majority of vegans don't need > 1.6g/kg/d protein to maximize outcomes from training.

[Evanther]

Thanks, Jordan. And best of luck dragging the rest of the industry into the light on this.

[gnuckols]

Now that we have folks like ... Greg Nuckols (2) going on the record as disagreeing with Jordan's take that vegans don't need more than 1.6-2.2 g/kg of protein

I'm curious what the citation was for that, because my position for at least the past couple of years has been that 1.6-2.2g/kg is sufficient for vegans. It's certainly possible that I've recently said something to the contrary that I don't remember, but I think you may be attributing a position to me that I haven't held in quite some time.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I'm curious what the citation was for that, because my position for at least the past couple of years has been that 1.6-2.2g/kg is sufficient for vegans. It's certainly possible that I've recently said something to the contrary that I don't remember, but I think you may be attributing a position to me that I haven't held in quite some time.

I appreciate you clarifying, as this was my understanding of your position as well.

[Evanther]

Jordan can you confirm that you do not intend to explain why you are unable to confirm Dr Mike's position based on the video and timestamp linked? Given that he explicitly says vegans need more protein than omnivores in this video I'm puzzled by your edit

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Jordan can you confirm that you do not intend to explain why you are unable to confirm Dr Mike's position based on the video and timestamp linked? Given that he explicitly says vegans need more protein than omnivores in this video I'm puzzled by your edit

I cannot "confirm" Dr. Israetel's position because vegans clearly do not need more protein than omnivores once a certain threshold of protein is met. Therefore, I am rejecting this claim as I did above.

I am not commenting on other's work provided without citations or context, though I provided mine anyway. You'll note that your claim about what Greg "said" was not accurate, for example.

Happy to answer any more questions you may have regarding vegan protein needs as compared to omnivores.