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**sd120** · 05-21-2020, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Michael Ray

I wouldn't recommend this as both will have some cross-over. Perhaps you can provide some details to what's been ongoing and maybe we can help adapt something to suit your situation?

Hello,

I have a similar issue: quad tendonosis and lower back pain.
Back ground: competitive power-lifter, recently received a bronze medal nationally in March. Have squatted around 635lbs, benched 505lbs and dead-lifted 738lbs in the past, weighing around 255-260lbs. Work in an office environment, 32 years old. Diet and sleep are pretty good.
-tweaked QL area Feb 2020 , went on and competed any ways , took 3 weeks off after comp , attempted to return to sport and about two weeks ago the QL region pain was noticeably worse. its a weird feeling too because it comes on after training, not during
- pain only really happens when i hike my right hip or try to push it right.
-quad tendon pain came on at around the same time, maybe a month before, around Jan 2020, this has sense gotten more bearable, started with tempo box squats up to 70% and then paused tempo box squats with around 325lbs, but i am concerned that this is aggravating my lower back.

I have both templates the knee and the lower back , but i am really not sure how proceed after seeing your comment in regards to this, i read specifically that the bill star method can help with the lower back but will not help with tendonosis.
I am hoping to receive some guidance on how proceed.

I believe I PM'd Michael, so sorry in advance for the double post.

**Henning** · 09-22-2020, 09:48 AM

Hi,

Back in February I started to notice increasingly back pain every week (especially during skwaats). I tried to deal with it by holding back on the intensity for a few weeks, and switching to paused squats, but it just got worse. Then one day during warm ups, I felt this insane pain and my low back sort of just "collapsed" underneath the weight. I reacted by "bouncing" up to re-rack the weights and the pain was like a 9-10 / 10. This set back my training for weeks, and the squats were switched out for lunges in the higher rep ranges (12 reps..), which did not trigger lower back pain. Training went fine, until O' Holy 'Rona arrived at the gates. Months without the gym went, and my back pain slowly went away (with occasionally re appearances from time to time - often when being too still/sitting too much). HOWEVER, I was working at his time as well, beside my studies. During this time, I had a few long hard days with shoveling. I was totally exhausted these days as I went hours upon hours shoveling heavy materials in extreme heat (for a Norwegian at least), then after a while (some 4-7 days after) my upper back wanted some attention as well! Next day I could barely move, and went to my doctor. I was of course told to ease up on work and gradually strengthen my back. Which I did, and all was good (but also here upper back pain occasionally appeared, but now during more stressing activities eg. shoveling xD).
When the 'Rona restrictions eased up just a few weeks ago, I went back to the gym, starting with the beginner template, weaker than ever. After about 3 weeks I noticed my low back pain came sneaking in again, and so I bought the low back rehab template. I am now in week two (phase 1), but my lower back pain (which is about 4/10 on a pain scale) still lasts for over 24 hours, and are often worse the next one-two days. I also now start to feel somewhat of a pain in my upper back when loading it for the "heavier" rpe 7 sets. When looking up the included PDF, it states that symptoms should NOT last for 24 hours, and if so, modifications should be made.
So here I am now. What can I do about this? The pain does not seem to ease up yet, and has been around for quite a while now. Any suggestions for modifications?
Apologizing for this novel of a question, hope to hear from you!

Henning

**Michael Ray** · 09-24-2020, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Henning

Hi,

Back in February I started to notice increasingly back pain every week (especially during skwaats). I tried to deal with it by holding back on the intensity for a few weeks, and switching to paused squats, but it just got worse. Then one day during warm ups, I felt this insane pain and my low back sort of just "collapsed" underneath the weight. I reacted by "bouncing" up to re-rack the weights and the pain was like a 9-10 / 10. This set back my training for weeks, and the squats were switched out for lunges in the higher rep ranges (12 reps..), which did not trigger lower back pain. Training went fine, until O' Holy 'Rona arrived at the gates. Months without the gym went, and my back pain slowly went away (with occasionally re appearances from time to time - often when being too still/sitting too much). HOWEVER, I was working at his time as well, beside my studies. During this time, I had a few long hard days with shoveling. I was totally exhausted these days as I went hours upon hours shoveling heavy materials in extreme heat (for a Norwegian at least), then after a while (some 4-7 days after) my upper back wanted some attention as well! Next day I could barely move, and went to my doctor. I was of course told to ease up on work and gradually strengthen my back. Which I did, and all was good (but also here upper back pain occasionally appeared, but now during more stressing activities eg. shoveling xD).
When the 'Rona restrictions eased up just a few weeks ago, I went back to the gym, starting with the beginner template, weaker than ever. After about 3 weeks I noticed my low back pain came sneaking in again, and so I bought the low back rehab template. I am now in week two (phase 1), but my lower back pain (which is about 4/10 on a pain scale) still lasts for over 24 hours, and are often worse the next one-two days. I also now start to feel somewhat of a pain in my upper back when loading it for the "heavier" rpe 7 sets. When looking up the included PDF, it states that symptoms should NOT last for 24 hours, and if so, modifications should be made.
So here I am now. What can I do about this? The pain does not seem to ease up yet, and has been around for quite a while now. Any suggestions for modifications?
Apologizing for this novel of a question, hope to hear from you!

Henning

Hey Henning - thanks for the questions and sorry to hear about your situation. I recommend checking out the article HERE for general advice on modifying loading during these situations. With this in mind, have you identified particular movements in which you noticed increased symptoms during or after training/ An initial step can simply be lowering RPE for those particular movements and see how things go.

**Henning** · 09-24-2020, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Michael Ray

Hey Henning - thanks for the questions and sorry to hear about your situation. I recommend checking out the article HERE for general advice on modifying loading during these situations. With this in mind, have you identified particular movements in which you noticed increased symptoms during or after training/ An initial step can simply be lowering RPE for those particular movements and see how things go.

Thanks! Yes, the pain came in February soon after I switched from low bar to high bar squats. It is also the exercise which eventually caused the acute pain in the gym at that point.
Now I would say the pain is triggered by squatting and/or deadlifting. It is however hard to tell, as the pain usually comes after a training session, and very often worse after 24-48 hours. I will try to reduce the loading a bit more, and see how it goes.

**Michael Ray** · 09-26-2020, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Henning

Thanks! Yes, the pain came in February soon after I switched from low bar to high bar squats. It is also the exercise which eventually caused the acute pain in the gym at that point.
Now I would say the pain is triggered by squatting and/or deadlifting. It is however hard to tell, as the pain usually comes after a training session, and very often worse after 24-48 hours. I will try to reduce the loading a bit more, and see how it goes.

I understand. Yes, I'd start by lowering RPE for those provocative lifts. If you find it difficult to pinpoint a particular movement/lift then decreasing RPE for the programmed exercises each session / sRPE is still a good initial step to see how you respond.

**Henning** · 09-29-2020, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Michael Ray

I understand. Yes, I'd start by lowering RPE for those provocative lifts. If you find it difficult to pinpoint a particular movement/lift then decreasing RPE for the programmed exercises each session / sRPE is still a good initial step to see how you respond.

Thanks for all help, it seems to ease up a bit already. Last week I only did day 1 (Monday) and 2 (Saturday) and one home workout with bands for my back in between (Wednesday), as my back was quite angry after day 1. On day 2 I reduced volume on squats to three sets, in addition to lowering rpe like you told med to, and i felt quite fast that this "eased" my back. Not exhausting it too much. Next day I had actually no pain at all.. Might of course be a factor of placebo, but that doesn't really matter as no pain is great anyways.
I was wondering, is it a point in reducing day two and three to 3 sets instead of 4 and 5 (phase 1)? I mean.. they both include higher intensities and higher volume. I feel my back get more exhausted, thus pain quickly comes back. Is it crucial with these set counts?
I'm aware I might just being picking on details here, but this isn't my profession, so have to ask. What do you think?
Again, thanks.

**Henning** · 10-01-2020, 09:33 AM

Should I proceed to phase 2 even though pain has not been lowered? For now pain is perhaps a 5/10, which is where it was before I began the template. It seems to worsening throughout the week as volume and intensity increase, I'm afraid it will just get worse if I keep pushing higher intensities in the next phases. I also use training recovery assessment computer (from Mike Tuchscherer) and it kind of states the same..

**Michael Ray** · 10-05-2020, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Henning

Should I proceed to phase 2 even though pain has not been lowered? For now pain is perhaps a 5/10, which is where it was before I began the template. It seems to worsening throughout the week as volume and intensity increase, I'm afraid it will just get worse if I keep pushing higher intensities in the next phases. I also use training recovery assessment computer (from Mike Tuchscherer) and it kind of states the same..

Henning - thanks for the questions. You don't have to go to phase 2, you have the option to re-complete phase 1 or a portion of it (a week for example) if you feel this is necessary for your situation. Sounds like you made some adjustments in a prior post and had some improvement in symptoms. I've not consulted with you so it's difficult to give individual advice but often symptoms ebb and flow for innumerable reasons. Ideally, you continue to find tolerable activity for you. Hope that helps.

**Henning** · 10-05-2020, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Michael Ray

Henning - thanks for the questions. You don't have to go to phase 2, you have the option to re-complete phase 1 or a portion of it (a week for example) if you feel this is necessary for your situation. Sounds like you made some adjustments in a prior post and had some improvement in symptoms. I've not consulted with you so it's difficult to give individual advice but often symptoms ebb and flow for innumerable reasons. Ideally, you continue to find tolerable activity for you. Hope that helps.

Okay, thanks a lot.

**Collyer** · 12-06-2020, 06:56 PM

The links in the article don’t work.

**Michael Ray** · 12-07-2020, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Collyer

The links in the article don’t work.

Hey - can you elaborate?

**fbc91** · 01-03-2021, 06:53 PM

Does this template work for long-term (13 years for me) non-specific low back pain? My pain is exacerbated when standing for long periods, sitting long periods, and engaging in lumbar flexion.

Do you think its possible for me to eliminate my low back pain after such a long period of time? I know most cases resolve on their own, but that never happened with me.

I was reading painscience.com, and the author there thinks most LBP is caused by muscle spasms or trigger points. What's your opinion on this?

**Michael Ray** · 01-04-2021, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by fbc91

Does this template work for long-term (13 years for me) non-specific low back pain? My pain is exacerbated when standing for long periods, sitting long periods, and engaging in lumbar flexion.

Do you think its possible for me to eliminate my low back pain after such a long period of time? I know most cases resolve on their own, but that never happened with me.

I was reading painscience.com, and the author there thinks most LBP is caused by muscle spasms or trigger points. What's your opinion on this?

Hey fbc91 - sorry to hear about your low back pain experience. If your goal is to return to resistance training (specifically squat, bench press, and deadlift) then I think the template will be helpful. If you go the template route then I recommend getting the bundle with the consultation option, so we can discuss your experience and individual recommendations and advice can be provided. Let me know if you have any other questions.

**hulk** · 01-24-2021, 01:23 PM

Hi,

I hurt my back a month ago during DL. I tried to manage on my own for the past weeks and things got better up to this week until some symptoms returned during squatting. I decided to buy the Low Back Pain template to have a clearer plan and did Day 1 yesterday/saturday:

HHBS: 15x20kg, x30, x40, x50 (1RM before @190kg);
comp. BP as usual (doesn’t give me any problems);
SDL (with a closer stance than usual): 15x20kg, x40, x50, x60 (1RM before @217.5kg);
then 3x15 situps and superman

No symptoms during or immediately afterwards – as the day went on some symptoms started to creep up though;
Woke up today/sunday with severe pain (almost as painful as initial back tweak). I can move around, bend over etc., it’s just very painful. I actually went for a 30-minute bike ride – felt fine during, as soon as I got off, pain like before.

Pain is mostly situated deep in my lower back. From time to time I also feel some shooting/stinging feeling in my left quad (at one point I felt it going further down towards my shin/peroneal muscles), sometimes I feel it more towards my right glute. I’ve had back tweaks (last one was 5 years ago) and pain before, but the severity and duration of the pain and shooting/stinging sensations in my lower extremities have me very worried and frustrated.
I’m unsure what to expect and whether or not to see a doctor/physio. This situation also has me feeling rather depressed and demotivated to squat and deadlift.

Any advice or encouragement would greatly be appreciated.

**Patrick Laughlin** · 03-02-2021, 03:42 PM

Michael Ray

My apologies if this has been covered but would "Low Back Pain" in the context of this template include sacral/SI area pain?

Thanks.

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