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    Peacecamper
    Junior Member

  • Peacecamper
    replied
    Hey, I'm interested in the low back rehab template, but I'm not 100 % sure yet if it's right for me.
    I'm Gerrit, 32, from Germany and have some issues with lower back pain for a about two years now. It started around April 2020 when I hurt my lower back during a deadlift session. In hindsight my lower back was way too rounded and the day after the workout it hurt on a scale of maybe 4-5/10. When it didn't go away after a few days I went to see a doctor, who diagnosed a facett syndrom. I got a cortinson shot and the pain and the inflammation in the facets went away and everything was fine again.
    Last year around the same time the same thing happend again. I didn't properly check up my form once more and had almost the same pain sensations, a little bit less than the year before though. So I though it was the same thing and the diagnosis was the same as well, but this time the cortison shot didn't really help. I went to see a physiotherapist and stopped working out for a couple of weeks. The pain went away, but once I started training again even with super light weights and under supervision of a trainer who corrected my squat and deadlift form, the pain came back after the workouts. Not very strong, it was usually more an annoyance than real pain, but something was clearly still amiss.
    This went on the rest of 2021 and I went to see a different doctor a week ago. He analysed my spine, my running style and also measured my strength for specific muscle groups. The major things he found out and what causes the pain according to him:

    My lower back muscles and also my hamstrings are both significantly weaker than my abs and quads. Additionally my left quad muscle is way stronger than the one of the right leg, but the right leg's hamstring is stronger than the left.
    My lower spine is very flat, so the curvature of my lumbar is quite small.
    I lack stability in my core, which can also be seen while runnning, where I stabilize myself by setting down my feet almost in the middle below my body and not below the hip sockets. I hope you understand what I mean, it's kinda to translate the German analysis into English if you're not used to the medical terms.

    He said that the facet syndrome is most likely not my main problem, but the muscular disbalance and the flat lumbar spine.
    He suggests to train the following muscles:

    M. erector spinae
    M. transversus abdominis
    M. biceps femoris; M. semitendinosus
    M. gluteus medius
    M. gluteus maximus

    Now to my question: With this medical history, is this template a good start for me? Or would it be sufficient to just lower the rpe on any existing program and maybe put some single leg exercises in to fix the differences between both legs? I own Thinner Leaner Stronger and Bigger Leaner Stronger by Mike Matthews, Jeff Nippard*s Fundamental Program and a couple of power building programs by Brendan Tietz. I started a few years back with Thinner Leaner Stronger with some success and switched to Brendan Tietz' programs thereafter. After a year the injury happened. I bought Jeff Nippard's program to find my way back into the gym and work on my basics again. I don't have any of your programs yet except the free version of the Bridge.

    Also I think my breakdown in form and rounding of my lower pack is also caused by a lack of ankle and hip mobility. And while I absolutly want to work on this, would switching to sumo deadlift maybe a good idea to protect my lower back a little better? I also tend to have a rather wide squat stand with turned out feet. If I stand at shoulder width I can't reach any depth whatsoever.

    Kind Regards and thank you in advance!
    Gerrit
    Peacecamper
    Junior Member
    Last edited by Peacecamper; 01-21-2022, 11:17 PM.

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  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    commented on 's reply
    Hey! I think it'd be fine to either drop a day or move on to the beginner prescription if you are feeling good overall.

    The main concept to keep in mind is adjusting loading as needed with RPE for each session. Let me know if you have any other questions.
  • pekka.okuloff
    Junior Member

  • pekka.okuloff
    replied
    Hi.

    What would you recommend for phase 3, if I cant get to the gym 4 times a week?
    Should I modify phase 3 for 3 days. Any suggestions on how?
    Or should I move on to normal programming? (Beginner prescription propably)

    I am currently on week 6 (did all 3 weeks of phase 1) and I have mostly no pain, but I do get a lot of tightness, that causes my back to crooked at
    mornings. It gets better with the movement as the day goes by.

    I'm 38 years, about 250 lbs and over 6' 2"

    I lifted very actively during highschool, but gave it up when I started working. I've started again a few times, but never got past a few months before I've either injured myself or stopped for some other change in life.
    I've had acute back issues several time after turning 25. I started lifting again last August. Started 2 times a week with golden six, and changed it to Beginner Prescription after a couple of months.
    Hurt my back again second week in, after going on a trampoline in an indoor park with my kids.


    Leave a comment:

  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexsauter View Post
    I just posted recently, but I have had back pain for about 2 years now after stopping lifting heavy and doing PT and trying to leave it alone. It is only on the lower left side, and overall the pain increases with the more movement I do. Laying down is the most comfortable thing for me, sitting in a chair and standing make it worse as the day goes on. I have worked with a barbell medicine coach before, and I just wanted to try getting back into lifting because that is my goal, but every time I do a session it just increases my pain so much and I have to lay down and the next day it usually hurts more. It doesn't hurt at the moment because I am using like 15 lbs for goblet squats and KB deadlifts, but it's just the effects after that come. Like I just feel like the lifting adds on to the stress of daily activity that I have to do already like walking to class and stuff. Im sick of doing a session, then regretting it after or the next day because the pain increases quite a bit. Idk, I feel better when im not lifting because it doesn't cause much pain, but I want to be able to lift, but that makes the pain come back so I don't want to do it again. I just don't know if I can ever make my back better if I don't address the problem through lifting? Maybe I need to start at an entry point of loading/volume lower than what I did, because the first day of the template caused some pain, and then the next session I hadn't returned back to normal pain level, so I had to skip it.
    Sorry to hear about your experience. I suggest getting a consult with us so we can talk through your experience and help find a path forward. We are happy to help.

    Leave a comment:

  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    replied
    Originally posted by DidNotDoTheProgram View Post

    Hey Michael, thankfully I didn't let myself get swayed too much by the chiropractor's opinion. Went to the gym yesterday and I was able to Deadlift with minimum pain. I was getting gassed out with just the barbell and a pair of 10kg bumper plates, but I can't complain. Almost teared up because I thought barbell DLs were still really far away haha.

    I won't see that chiropractor again and I'll continue with the LBP template. Seems like I'm getting better, but If towards the end of it my symptoms are still fluctuating high I'll definitely look for a consult with you guys. Thanks a lot for your work on the template and all the free content available!
    I appreciate the reply. Let me know how things are going.

    Leave a comment:

  • Alexsauter
    Junior Member

  • Alexsauter
    replied
    I just posted recently, but I have had back pain for about 2 years now after stopping lifting heavy and doing PT and trying to leave it alone. It is only on the lower left side, and overall the pain increases with the more movement I do. Laying down is the most comfortable thing for me, sitting in a chair and standing make it worse as the day goes on. I have worked with a barbell medicine coach before, and I just wanted to try getting back into lifting because that is my goal, but every time I do a session it just increases my pain so much and I have to lay down and the next day it usually hurts more. It doesn't hurt at the moment because I am using like 15 lbs for goblet squats and KB deadlifts, but it's just the effects after that come. Like I just feel like the lifting adds on to the stress of daily activity that I have to do already like walking to class and stuff. Im sick of doing a session, then regretting it after or the next day because the pain increases quite a bit. Idk, I feel better when im not lifting because it doesn't cause much pain, but I want to be able to lift, but that makes the pain come back so I don't want to do it again. I just don't know if I can ever make my back better if I don't address the problem through lifting? Maybe I need to start at an entry point of loading/volume lower than what I did, because the first day of the template caused some pain, and then the next session I hadn't returned back to normal pain level, so I had to skip it.

    Leave a comment:

  • DidNotDoTheProgram
    Junior Member

  • DidNotDoTheProgram
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Ray View Post
    Deadlift - have you tried regressing to a deadlift less than the barbell weight? Perhaps a kettlebell deadlift?
    Hey Michael, thankfully I didn't let myself get swayed too much by the chiropractor's opinion. Went to the gym yesterday and I was able to Deadlift with minimum pain. I was getting gassed out with just the barbell and a pair of 10kg bumper plates, but I can't complain. Almost teared up because I thought barbell DLs were still really far away haha.

    I won't see that chiropractor again and I'll continue with the LBP template. Seems like I'm getting better, but If towards the end of it my symptoms are still fluctuating high I'll definitely look for a consult with you guys. Thanks a lot for your work on the template and all the free content available!

    Leave a comment:

  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexsauter View Post
    Hi, I am 20 years old and have been suffering from left low back pain for about 2 years after I was lifting seriously but with bad form. Right after i stopped doing my back loading exercises I did a bunch of upper body stuff which made my shoulder start to act up and I kept pushing past the pain there as well. It has been about a year since the shoulder pain started. I have worked with a barbell medicine rehab coach before but stopped because I felt like I wasn’t making much progress. I have gotten MRI’s and nothing was shown on either the shoulder or back. My back feels worse then it did last year so I want to get back into lifting to maybe build back work capacity and get my back and shoulder better so I can actually lift. I was wondering if I could run the low back pain template and the shoulder rehab template at the same time?
    Potentially but that may be complex. You'd probably benefit more from a consultation and regular programming from one of our coaches.

    Leave a comment:

  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    replied
    Originally posted by DidNotDoTheProgram View Post
    Barely started the first week (started with the knee pain template, but decided to switch as I think my pain is more back/sciatica related).

    Deadlifts feel impossible to do now, I have a constant dull pain in my hamstring, but when trying to hinge for a deadlift the pain becomes sharp and I can't stand it. I can tolerate rack pulls only when above the knee, at which point the ROM is minimal, almost feels more like a glute exercise or something. Sumo used to be painless last week, but now it hurts too.

    Something similar happens to the back extension exercises. When extending the legs, the pain just becomes too much. I was able to do some back extensions, but not all the prescribed reps or other exercises.

    How should I proceed? Maybe repeat the first weeks until deadlifting becomes more tolerable? Are rack pulls a good way to transition to a pull from the floor without pain, or would you recommend something else? Funnily enough, high bar squats feel very good, I even feel like I can go deeper than before the injury.

    EDIT: Went to a chiropractor and he acted in a very alarmistic way after doing some leg raise tests. Needless to say, I just got noceboed the fuck out of me. Told me to go back when I get some xrays because it looks like sciatica caused by protruding discs, and was scared to try any alignment without xrays to confirm. I told him I was doing some light work in the gym, and begged me to please not do any exercise at all, just rest.

    I know BBM mantras but this is the first time a '""doctor"" acted in such an alarming way to me. Should I continue with the low back template or? Lol.
    Hey, sorry to hear about your ongoing pain experience. It's difficult to give individual advice without a consultation with you. We'd be happy to remotely consult. It is unlikely we'd agree with the chiropractor's advice.

    Deadlift - have you tried regressing to a deadlift less than the barbell weight? Perhaps a kettlebell deadlift?

    Leave a comment:

  • Alexsauter
    Junior Member

  • Alexsauter
    replied
    Hi, I am 20 years old and have been suffering from left low back pain for about 2 years after I was lifting seriously but with bad form. Right after i stopped doing my back loading exercises I did a bunch of upper body stuff which made my shoulder start to act up and I kept pushing past the pain there as well. It has been about a year since the shoulder pain started. I have worked with a barbell medicine rehab coach before but stopped because I felt like I wasn’t making much progress. I have gotten MRI’s and nothing was shown on either the shoulder or back. My back feels worse then it did last year so I want to get back into lifting to maybe build back work capacity and get my back and shoulder better so I can actually lift. I was wondering if I could run the low back pain template and the shoulder rehab template at the same time?

    Leave a comment:

  • DidNotDoTheProgram
    Junior Member

  • DidNotDoTheProgram
    replied
    Barely started the first week (started with the knee pain template, but decided to switch as I think my pain is more back/sciatica related).

    Deadlifts feel impossible to do now, I have a constant dull pain in my hamstring, but when trying to hinge for a deadlift the pain becomes sharp and I can't stand it. I can tolerate rack pulls only when above the knee, at which point the ROM is minimal, almost feels more like a glute exercise or something. Sumo used to be painless last week, but now it hurts too.

    Something similar happens to the back extension exercises. When extending the legs, the pain just becomes too much. I was able to do some back extensions, but not all the prescribed reps or other exercises.

    How should I proceed? Maybe repeat the first weeks until deadlifting becomes more tolerable? Are rack pulls a good way to transition to a pull from the floor without pain, or would you recommend something else? Funnily enough, high bar squats feel very good, I even feel like I can go deeper than before the injury.

    EDIT: Went to a chiropractor and he acted in a very alarmistic way after doing some leg raise tests. Needless to say, I just got noceboed the fuck out of me. Told me to go back when I get some xrays because it looks like sciatica caused by protruding discs, and was scared to try any alignment without xrays to confirm. I told him I was doing some light work in the gym, and begged me to please not do any exercise at all, just rest.

    I know BBM mantras but this is the first time a '""doctor"" acted in such an alarming way to me. Should I continue with the low back template or? Lol.
    DidNotDoTheProgram
    Junior Member
    Last edited by DidNotDoTheProgram; 11-09-2021, 07:48 AM.

    Leave a comment:

  • Michael Ray
    Moderator

  • Michael Ray
    replied
    Originally posted by Ian B View Post

    Sorry to jump on this but would say the low back template would be appropriate for someone who is recently experiencing “sciatica” like symptoms?

    Over the past 5 months I developed some sciatica pain which seems to move from what I believe is my low back to the top of the hip and down one leg with numbness into the toes of that same leg. Don’t know if the low back template would cover this type of issue or if a consult wound be more appropriate
    Yes, the template can be helpful for aiding reengagement of activities (specifically resistance training) to tolerance. We are happy to consult with you. Usually in these scenarios we are monitoring to see if those neurological symptoms worsen over time (example loss of movement such as foot drop).

    Leave a comment:

  • Ian B
    Junior Member

  • Ian B
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Ray View Post

    No worries. Yes, low back pain is broadly defined as experiencing pain below 12th ribs to below gluteal folds with or without leg symptoms.
    Sorry to jump on this but would say the low back template would be appropriate for someone who is recently experiencing “sciatica” like symptoms?

    Over the past 5 months I developed some sciatica pain which seems to move from what I believe is my low back to the top of the hip and down one leg with numbness into the toes of that same leg. Don’t know if the low back template would cover this type of issue or if a consult wound be more appropriate

    Leave a comment:

  • ColtonG
    Junior Member

  • ColtonG
    replied
    Hello, I have a few questions regarding the Low Back Rehab Template.

    Male
    18 yo
    185 lbs
    6’1”

    My back pain first arrived in the summer of 2020 while squatting and deadlifting. It started out feeling like severe DOMS. Over weeks and months, the pain kept getting worse and the soreness would hurt more and last longer. I had to lower the weight some to keep the pain down to a tolerable level. However, I was still pretty stubborn and tried to stay somewhat heavy. This caused the pain to keep getting worse and worse over time. I never had a moment where I “tweaked” my pain or anything like that; the process was gradual. I got down to very low weight while attempting my own rehab strategies, but none of them worked.

    I was somewhat familiar with Barbell Medicine’s content about training, but not really the pain and rehab side. I started binge watching videos and reading articles and learned a lot about pain science. Even with this newfound knowledge, I still could not develop a successful strategy. I finally bought the Low Back Rehab Template in late July 2021. I started phase 1 using the default exercise for bench, PVC pipe hip hinge/RDLs for deadlifts, and BW squats. For reference, I have previously squatted 325 lbs and benched 270 lbs (didn’t really do BB deads as a football player, but I’ve cleaned 245 lbs and trap bar deadlifted 315 lbs). These numbers are from right around the time the pain started.

    I read from another part of this forum topic that it would be reasonable to repeat phase 1 or a week of it if I felt it was necessary… I’m on like week 8 lol. For the first few weeks, I realized just using bodyweight/PVC pipe did not exacerbate symptoms too much. I immediately started trying to add weight, which was a mistake. The weight has gone up and down throughout the past 8 weeks, and it seems that using no weight brings minimal symptoms, and using even a little weight (5-15 lbs) brings symptoms that last more than 24-48 hours. Based on this, week 6 and 7 have been using only bodyweight (except for bench). I read in the “Pain in Training: What do?” article that when symptoms are neither increasing nor decreasing, it may be useful to repeat sessions without increasing weight at all. I have started using this approach, as my symptoms mostly remain constant when I do not try to add weight (and I’m thinking this was the point of phase 1 the whole time lol). I will probably repeat the same week for another week or two in addition to weeks 6 and 7 (the same week repeated 3 or 4 times in total.) I have a few ideas of how to continue after that based on symptoms.

    1. If symptoms decrease, I will move on to phase 2 and try to add weight VERY slowly.

    2. If symptoms neither increase nor decrease, I am thinking of moving on to a “modified” phase 2, where I would just repeat week 4 over and over because I am not really comfortable going for 8s. Part of me is wanting to move to phase 2 simply as a means to bring in more variety. I feel I may be sensitive to doing SBD 3x week so I wanted to try phase 2 with very light weight as an alternative where I am doing SBD only 1x week.

    3. If symptoms increase, I guess I would either continue phase 1 and decrease volume a little, or try week 4 on repeat with 10s or even 12s.

    I am reluctant to stay in phase 1 for so long because I don’t want to keep trying something over and over when it is not working. At this point, I am basically relying on the fact that I seem to have found my “entry point” with bodyweight movements. I have had days/weeks when there was less pain than others, but I honestly cannot say that I have made any definite improvements since the pain began last year. It was just slowly getting worse and is now stagnant with the rehab template, but not improved. I can add some more context in another post if it would be helpful.

    Overall, these are my questions:

    1. Do my approaches seem reasonable? Are there some minor adjustments I should make based on what I’ve said, or maybe I need a new plan entirely?

    2. Should I be trying to add weight at all during phase 1, or should I simply be repeating the same week to desensitize my body to the movements?

    3. Is it common to see low back pain arise in the way mine did? It seems a lot of people on the forum with back pain experienced a “tweak” at some point in time but I did not. Also, does the presence (or lack thereof) of a tweak change the approach to rehab in any particular way?

    Lastly, I’ll mention that I currently do not plan on getting a consultation. However, it is not completely off the table. If the pain does not get better through my own management with the template, my own research on pain and rehab science, and help from these forums, I will be getting professional help eventually.

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  • RVR
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Ray View Post

    The first link (low back pain template) is working. I updated the ebook link. I'll need to get videos for cobra and sphinx to re-upload soon.
    Working now!

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