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  • Replacing cleans

    I've heard Jordan indicate that cleans aren't the best use of training time for a novice. What would you replace them with, barbell rows? Also, is Barbell Medicine creating an LP program? Thank you!

    Tim

  • #2
    Originally posted by Timleblanc912 View Post
    I've heard Jordan indicate that cleans aren't the best use of training time for a novice. What would you replace them with, barbell rows? Also, is Barbell Medicine creating an LP program? Thank you!

    Tim
    I said this might be the case in some contexts. I want to be very clear about this. I think cleans can be useful in some contexts, but less useful in others. Big surprise, right?

    I would do rows or another pulling variation in their place.

    And yes, we are creating a novice program.
    Barbell Medicine "With you from bench to bedside"
    ///Website /// Instagram /// Peri™ Rx /// Whey Rx /// Barbell Medicine Podcast/// Newsletter /// Seminars ///

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    • #3
      Do women need to do 3x5 on their deadlift?

      I seem to remember you suggest in the later stage of NLP, we should do two upper body days and one deadlift day which include 1 top set plus two back off sets to keep the deadlift volume equal

      How about women? Currently, all BBM templates are unisex, I'm wondering should women be training like men when they are in NLP? e.g. 3x5 on squat, 1x5 on deadlift

      A little bit off the topic, sorry

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mo.xiaoming View Post
        Do women need to do 3x5 on their deadlift?

        I seem to remember you suggest in the later stage of NLP, we should do two upper body days and one deadlift day which include 1 top set plus two back off sets to keep the deadlift volume equal

        How about women? Currently, all BBM templates are unisex, I'm wondering should women be training like men when they are in NLP? e.g. 3x5 on squat, 1x5 on deadlift

        A little bit off the topic, sorry
        Women really aren't that special. I mean we are VERY special, of course, and I hope none of you forget that. ;-) But when it comes to training, we all need to train as human beings who learn and do new things. There will be some women who respond more robustly to training and some who are slower to respond. The same thing happens with men. I have women trainees who blow plenty of men out of the water when it comes to their training. :-)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Leah Lutz View Post

          Women really aren't that special. I mean we are VERY special, of course, and I hope none of you forget that. ;-) But when it comes to training, we all need to train as human beings who learn and do new things. There will be some women who respond more robustly to training and some who are slower to respond. The same thing happens with men. I have women trainees who blow plenty of men out of the water when it comes to their training. :-)
          Yes, women are half of the population and basic human biology applies, that statement in PPST gave me deep impression

          However, SS thinks women will do better on 3x5 deadlift and 5x3 on squat(for some of them) because of the inefficiency to recruit motor units. I'm curious about the stand of the BBM gang on this matter, because I remember you think BBM templates should not be changed because of gender difference, or that rule does not apply to NLP

          My wife is on her NLP and stuck on her 3x5 deadlift but other lifts still go well, clearly I cannot ask her to do 1 top set and 8 drop off sets on one session. So I'm wondering whether I should use 1x5 instead of 3x5 on deadlift in the first place, so I can bump up the total pulling volume easily like Jordan suggested.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by mo.xiaoming View Post

            Yes, women are half of the population and basic human biology applies, that statement in PPST gave me deep impression

            However, SS thinks women will do better on 3x5 deadlift and 5x3 on squat(for some of them) because of the inefficiency to recruit motor units. I'm curious about the stand of the BBM gang on this matter, because I remember you think BBM templates should not be changed because of gender difference, or that rule does not apply to NLP

            My wife is on her NLP and stuck on her 3x5 deadlift but other lifts still go well, clearly I cannot ask her to do 1 top set and 8 drop off sets on one session. So I'm wondering whether I should use 1x5 instead of 3x5 on deadlift in the first place, so I can bump up the total pulling volume easily like Jordan suggested.

            I'm not sure if "SS thinks women will do better" with those programming modifications for women. I certainly wasn't under that impression anyway. I wouldn't change programming based on gender. Based on where someone falls on the athletic spectrum? Sure.

            Now something more interesting, why can't you ask your wife to do more volume? Second, when have we ever suggested someone do 1 top set and 8 back off sets? I think that's a little exaggeration, but the less sensitive someone is to training as demonstrated by their response to training, i.e. empirical evidence, the more training stress they're going to need for progress. Your wife may fall into the category. Switching from 3 sets of 5 to 5 sets of 3 is a lateral move that'll work a few weeks tops. That person would benefit more from volume.

            Further, if your wife is using 3x5 on the deadlift now, reducing volume will not help outside of a transient bump in performance secondary to a peak. That would be not be a move I'd recommend.
            Barbell Medicine "With you from bench to bedside"
            ///Website /// Instagram /// Peri™ Rx /// Whey Rx /// Barbell Medicine Podcast/// Newsletter /// Seminars ///

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post


              I'm not sure if "SS thinks women will do better" with those programming modifications for women. I certainly wasn't under that impression anyway.
              "Women typically can do sets across for deadlifts as well, for the neuromuscular reasons already discussed" -- the second paragraph of PPST 3ed | Chapter 9:Special Populations | Women | Novice & Intermediate training

              the example progression it lays out is 3x5 deadlift as well

              Coaching wife is one of the most difficult job to do, so I did read the books cover to cover

              Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
              Now something more interesting, why can't you ask your wife to do more volume? Second, when have we ever suggested someone do 1 top set and 8 back off sets? I think that's a little exaggeration, but the less sensitive someone is to training as demonstrated by their response to training, i.e. empirical evidence, the more training stress they're going to need for progress. Your wife may fall into the category. Switching from 3 sets of 5 to 5 sets of 3 is a lateral move that'll work a few weeks tops. That person would benefit more from volume.
              From Into the Great Wild Open to recent argument between SS/BBM, from my dismal experience of Texas method to big progression on bridge, all evidence suggest BBM way is a better way, I do understand theoretically and empirically, volume is the primary driver to long-term strength gain.

              That 9 sets DL is purely a joke. In your recent programming podcast(?), you mentioned after adding two upper body days, we should do 1 top set and 2 back off sets of DL to match volume. Since my wife has been doing 3x5 per session already, so 9x5 would be the 'natural choice' mathematically

              Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
              Further, if your wife is using 3x5 on the deadlift now, reducing volume will not help outside of a transient bump in performance secondary to a peak. That would be not be a move I'd recommend.
              I'll bump her DL volume up

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