Deadlift Strength Doesn't Influence Weightlifting Performance?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Thought I'd start a topic for general discussion vs. the standard Q/A format here. Check this study published ahead of print.

We observed significant correlations in 1RM performance between the overhead press and snatch (r = 0.69), front squat and snatch (r = 0.73), overhead press and clean and jerk (r = 0.67), and front squat and clean and jerk (r = 0.72, all r values: p < 0.01). No significant correlations were found for 1RM performance between the snatch and deadlift or between the clean and jerk and deadlift (r-range: 0.20–0.58; p > 0.05). Stepwise linear regression revealed that 1RM performance in the overhead press and front squat explained 62% of the variance in snatch 1RM performance (F = 5.51; p < 0.04). Overhead press and front squat 1RM performance explained 59% of the variance in the clean and jerk 1RM performance (F = 5.14; p < 0.04)

[Cole]

The limiting factor for WL movements is probably upper body. snatch and clean are very technique dependent. loads are relatively light. most people have the strength to complete the first portion of those lifts. ie: if you want to clean 315, all you need to be able to pull is 315, which is not very much. however, in order to push press 315 for the jerk part, your overhead press needs to have been trained extensively and those muscles must be stronger (relatively) than your pulling muscles. i guess what im saying is that once you DL 405 you are going to be able to handle the first portion of the WL movements, therefor it doesnt help as much to spend time going to 495 since you are already capable. it is more productive to focus on the front rack/quads and especially the pressing portions since that is going to be the limiting factor.

[David Oswald]

I'm pretty sure Mark Rippetoe, who coached Olympic lifting since the 80s, has proven that a snatch is just half your deadlift.

https://youtu.be/svkXtLzefT0

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

The limiting factor for WL movements is probably upper body. snatch and clean are very technique dependent. loads are relatively light. most people have the strength to complete the first portion of those lifts. ie: if you want to clean 315, all you need to be able to pull is 315, which is not very much. however, in order to push press 315 for the jerk part, your overhead press needs to have been trained extensively and those muscles must be stronger (relatively) than your pulling muscles. i guess what im saying is that once you DL 405 you are going to be able to handle the first portion of the WL movements, therefor it doesnt help as much to spend time going to 495 since you are already capable. it is more productive to focus on the front rack/quads and especially the pressing portions since that is going to be the limiting factor.

Yea, I'm not sure that the limiting factor for WL is upper body strength as we classically define it. Most weightlifters don't train the press or bench press that much, if at all.

If accurate, maybe this paper is identifying that training the clean and snatch is adequate enough for sports-specific pull strength development. Interested to hear more thoughts if y'all have them

[gharamn]

My training is primarily in the direction of powerlifting, but a while back I did a few months at a weightlifting gym so a few things I noticed for which I speculate relevance:

• We routinely trained the front squat and the push press. I don't recall DL (or BP and strict P fwiw), though it might have been in there sporadically. Definitely not a focus.
• We did train clean pulls regularly. Kinda like a deadlift, but continuing up onto the toes, and pulling the bar as high in the air as it would go. Apex height was the goal, and weights were "heavy" but modest compared to deadlifts. Also as I recall, rep schemes were higher than DL often are - think 8-12 range.
• For me, with clean and snatch, moving the weight on the pull was never all that hard. The difficulty is being fast enough to get under the bar before it comes back down. I never really got beyond beginner stage, so it could be that these folks at 1y+ had the movements trained to where this wasn't their bottleneck. IDK.
• On the contrary, standing up after the catch can be slow and feels much more akin to a traditional squat. It's the same weight, after all, and I can certainly DL more than I can FS.
• As Cole mentioned above, the weights are relatively light and they have to move fast. That's exactly unlike how I grind out my deadlifts, even when I'm doing reps.

[goreblox]

Jordan, do you think this will affect how you program for templates that emphasize OLY-related movements such as Titan and Super Total?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Jordan, do you think this will affect how you program for templates that emphasize OLY-related movements such as Titan and Super Total?

I don't think so, particularly for CrossFit, as they still need to deadlift and for people who aren't that far along in their WL journey. For more advanced weightlifters, I don't program heavy deadlifts that often tbh.