Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Animal protein and # MPS events for low(er) calorie diet?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Animal protein and # MPS events for low(er) calorie diet?

    Hi! Im trying to get started and knowledgeable about nutrition stuff. I read the to be a beast article and understand what macros I should be aiming for. I also watched Dr. Feigenbaum's lectures about how I should aim for 3g of leucine in a single serving and do that 3-5 times a day.

    Im a small human and probably will only need 1800 cals/day and about 130g of protein (115lbs bodyweight). But if I get 3g of leucine from animal proteins 3x/day, that's 90g of protein gone and only 40g left from other sources. I'll very easily exceed this 40g if I eat carbs like bread and pasta and beans and lentils, which means Id actually have to reduce my carbs/fats to accommodate these trace proteins.

    How do you other low calorie or small humans manage this? Should I only eat things like rice or potatoes which have less protein? or is it fine if my protein ends up being like 160g+ and have less carbs? What if I only did 2 MPS events (30g animal protein x twice a day) so I had 70g remaining from carb sources? am I over thinking this?

    Another question ... im not used to eating so much animal products. What if I supplement the leucine with BCAAs at a meal and just have things like tofu/beans instead of meat? Im not against being an omnivore I just dunno how I feel about becoming more of a carnivore!

    Thank you!

  • #2
    So some nuance (because we love that here)

    There are two angles I see this question needs to be addressed from. First, what a particular individual's leucine needs are to maximize MPS. Second would be sourcing that leucine.

    How much Leucine is needed for an individual to initiate maximized MPS is dependent on their age, training status, energy status (protein needs and calorie restriction were covered in TBaB which you have read), size, and sex. In one of the nutrition seminars, the Drs said that an untrained geriatric will typically need twice as much leucine to initiate MPS, but if they were to begin training, that double dose need actually goes away almost entirely within a few weeks (I think they said weeks).

    As for size and sex, let me quote Jordan's article 7 rules to optimize protein intake: (7RtOPI)

    The more male someone becomes, the more sensitive to amino acids they are, in general. This would allow a male to need slightly less protein per pound than a weight and age-matched female. That being said, lean body mass weight also plays a role in the amount of leucine needed per meal to maximize MPS, but this is literally a variation of 0.5-1g tops for a range of bodyweights between 100lbs-300lbs, so we don’t take it into consideration and 3-4g is very safe.
    One more data point on the Leucine requirements for an individual. I can't quickly find a BBM reference to this, but much of the literature uses 2.5g of leucine as the threshold for non untrained geriatrics. it is my understanding that BBM's standard 3-4g is rounding up to account for a broader populace that may include those that need more than the standard 2.5g because they are calorie restricted, huge, untrained, geriatric, who knows.

    So depending on information that I don't know about you, and that I'm not necessarily qualified to evaluate anyways, the 2.5g standard may be more applicable to you as an individual.
    Ok, all that out of the way, what can you do about what you eat? (which kinda addresses your last question)

    Well, if you really want to work hard to get that recommended large dose of Leucine 3-5x a day in your smaller calorie requirements, the generic "animal based protein" recommendation might not be specific enough to accomplish this. First, let me quote another line from the 7RtOPI article.

    This is also, of course, assuming that the protein you’re consuming either contains all the essential amino acids (like all animal derived proteins do) or you have eaten a protein rich meal within the past 4-6 hours that had all of the EAA’s present in abundant amounts.
    So if you have eaten sufficient quality protein with, or within 4-6 hours of eating leucine with the intent of initiating MPS, you could go with a BCAA supplement like Jordan's Peri-Rx (4g Leucine per serving) or Scivation's Xtend which Jordan has in the past said doesn't really count towards macros (but I do log them in as protein). Alternately, you could supplement a meal with EAA's in it but not quite enough Leucine, with one of those BCAA supplements or some whey, which if it's quality whey will have a huge amount of Leucine per gram, and has all those other EAAs anyways. (it takes about 29g of beef protein to hit 2.5g Leucine, but only 20g of protein from Jordan's Whey-Rx's to get 3g)

    Unfortunately, I don't have a spreadsheet that explains exactly how much of each EAA is in that tofu and beans, compared to what constitutes "EAA's present in abundant amounts." That's actually information I really wish I had.

    One final note: The Drs say just hitting the quality daily protein requirements without hitting the recommended Leucine protein timing recommendations gets you 90% efficacy, and the MPS maximizing strategy just gets you the extra 10%. So NBD if you can't get it perfect.
    Last edited by Serack; 08-06-2019, 03:53 PM.
    Forum topics and other links I've found useful

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Serack View Post
      So some nuance (because we love that here)

      There are two angles I see this question needs to be addressed from. First, what a particular individual's leucine needs are to maximize MPS. Second would be sourcing that leucine.

      How much Leucine is needed for an individual to initiate maximized MPS is dependent on their age, training status, energy status (protein needs and calorie restriction were covered in TBaB which you have read), size, and sex. In one of the nutrition seminars, the Drs said that an untrained geriatric will typically need twice as much leucine to initiate MPS, but if they were to begin training, that double dose need actually goes away almost entirely within a few weeks (I think they said weeks).

      As for size and sex, let me quote Jordan's article 7 rules to optimize protein intake: (7RtOPI)



      One more data point on the Leucine requirements for an individual. I can't quickly find a BBM reference to this, but much of the literature uses 2.5g of leucine as the threshold for non untrained geriatrics. it is my understanding that BBM's standard 3-4g is rounding up to account for a broader populace that may include those that need more than the standard 2.5g because they are calorie restricted, huge, untrained, geriatric, who knows.

      So depending on information that I don't know about you, and that I'm not necessarily qualified to evaluate anyways, the 2.5g standard may be more applicable to you as an individual.
      Ok, all that out of the way, what can you do about what you eat? (which kinda addresses your last question)

      Well, if you really want to work hard to get that recommended large dose of Leucine 3-5x a day in your smaller calorie requirements, the generic "animal based protein" recommendation might not be specific enough to accomplish this. First, let me quote another line from the 7RtOPI article.



      So if you have eaten sufficient quality protein with, or within 4-6 hours of eating leucine with the intent of initiating MPS, you could go with a BCAA supplement like Jordan's Peri-Rx (4g Leucine per serving) or Scivation's Xtend which Jordan has in the past said doesn't really count towards macros (but I do log them in as protein). Alternately, you could supplement a meal with EAA's in it but not quite enough Leucine, with one of those BCAA supplements or some whey, which if it's quality whey will have a huge amount of Leucine per gram, and has all those other EAAs anyways. (it takes about 29g of beef protein to hit 2.5g Leucine, but only 20g of protein from Jordan's Whey-Rx's to get 3g)

      Unfortunately, I don't have a spreadsheet that explains exactly how much of each EAA is in that tofu and beans, compared to what constitutes "EAA's present in abundant amounts." That's actually information I really wish I had.

      One final note: The Drs say just hitting the quality daily protein requirements without hitting the recommended Leucine protein timing recommendations gets you 90% efficacy, and the MPS maximizing strategy just gets you the extra 10%. So NBD if you can't get it perfect.
      thank u so much!! this is very helpful

      im an 18yo female with a few months of training. So Im not exactly sure how much leucine i would need...

      But I think I will just not overthink it and take the easy way and not worry about it. I will just make sure I get 130g of protein each day from 3 separate meals and get 90% of the results, good enough for me!! ill just use whey for any meals i dont have any meat or dairy, I forgot I could do that. thank you again

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HelenLifts View Post

        thank u so much!! this is very helpful

        im an 18yo female with a few months of training. So Im not exactly sure how much leucine i would need...

        But I think I will just not overthink it and take the easy way and not worry about it. I will just make sure I get 130g of protein each day from 3 separate meals and get 90% of the results, good enough for me!! ill just use whey for any meals i dont have any meat or dairy, I forgot I could do that. thank you again
        Yah, I literally mix vanilla flavored whey into my morning oatmeal 6 days a week. It’s actually pretty tasty, super easy, extremely high quality protein, and only milk is cheaper per gram of protein when I ran some #s on it a few years ago.

        Keep training and show them gym bro’s what a barbell training lady can do!
        Forum topics and other links I've found useful

        Comment


        • #5
          I looked at your log and noticed your uncertainty with the waist measurement. Since I don't want to clutter your log with a wall of text, I thought I'd post a response here (It will include a quote from a BBM resource which makes it long).

          For most purposes around here, just measuring at the navel is sufficient, and this is frequently specified when someone lists the measurement, I.E. Waist (navel): ## inches. In some places for vanity's sake, for a female, the narrowest place at the waist is measured. Huh, I just looked up the official navy standard, and they use that too.

          In the past, I've generally seen Jordan ask for it to be performed at the navel, (when he's using his fancy doctor terms he says umbilicus). However, in last year's June BBM news letter, he provided the below wall of text.

          The venerable belly button-or more properly, the umbilicus- is typically the anatomical location suggested to take the waist circumference measurement, but this not actually where much of the waist circumference data described above comes from.

          To further complicate things, some large data sets do not even report the procedure used to obtain the waist measurements being studied.

          Great.

          That said, we some guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) who commission yearly data
          collection series, The National Heallth and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES). Given that many of the waist circumference studies rely on NHANES data, it is reasonable to use their procedure for our own purposes as well. Here's the rundown:
          • Use your hand to feel the bony prominences on the front of your hip and find the highest one, the anterior superior iliac spine (ASIS).
          • Draw a horizontal line to mark ASIS with cosmetic pencil on both sides
          • Place tape measure around waist with the base of the tape measure flush the marked line.
          • Pull the tape snug, but do not compress the skin such that it's indented by the tape measure
          • Measure to the nearest 0.1cm at the end of expiration.
          Practically speaking, I'm aware that most folks are not going to use a cosmetic pencil to measure their waists so I would recommend feeling for the ASIS and then placing the tape around the area just above the bony projection- taking care to keep the tape level to the floor. ​
          Last edited by Serack; 08-07-2019, 05:57 PM.
          Forum topics and other links I've found useful

          Comment


          • #6
            Look at that, Jordan answered a very similar nutrition question 2 weeks ago. It looks as though my understanding of his current positions is a little outdated, and that you came to the general conclusion he'd want anyways.

            https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...teenage-female
            Forum topics and other links I've found useful

            Comment


            • #7
              thanks for all this information

              Comment

              Working...
              X