Cleans

[jlinboom]

Austin,
I found a few YouTube videos of you cleaning and squatting from 2014. At that time, you were doing 405x5 in the squat and cleaned 285. The reason I mention this, is that my ultimate goal is to clean 300. I'm 44 years old, so I think that would be pretty freaking awesome. Currently, I am cleaning 260, but my progress is so slow. I think my technique is solid, so I'm convinced that my strength needs to go up (I squat 335x5 and deadlift 315x5) if I am to achieve this goal. Using your ratios as a guide (my ratio, for whatever reason is 77% vs. your 70% clean to 5rep squat), I figure that if I can get my squat up to 405x5, I should be able to clean 300. Sound reasonable? Or is the deadlift a better measurement of clean potential?

I understand why you don't do cleans anymore, but your squats have gone up quite a bit since then. Any idea what your new clean might be? Ever been tempted to find out? Is there a point at which increased strength doesn't translate very well to the clean/snatch? I just completed The Bridge and was thrilled to see my squat and deadlift go up five pounds every week, but my clean over that 8 weeks only went up 10 pounds total. Was it your experience that the clean doesn't necessarily go up at the same rate as the squat and deadlift? If so, how did you get the clean to go up? (I just purchased the H-L-M program, so I thought I'd do snatch and cleans as lighter deadlift alternatives for the days that require it.)

[Austin Baraki]

Nope, I have no idea what my clean would be now, and am not particularly interested in finding out as I don't have any interest in competing in weightlifting myself.

Increased strength is great, but cleans need practice and specific training as well. The more "novice" you are, the more of a rapid carryover effect you'll see, combined with rapid technical/neuromuscular improvements. But as with anything else, progress slows down over time, and the more advanced you get, the more training resources you need to dedicate to things you want to improve. So, while increasing your strength is certainly useful, perhaps the balance of stress applied (and consequent fatigue generated) from pure strength training may be sapping a portion of resources that may be better applied to directly working on your cleans. Hard to say without knowing more about you, of course.

[mbasic]

Permission to engage in discussion on speculative Oly-Programming?

[Austin Baraki]

Permission to engage in discussion on speculative Oly-Programming?

Ha! Sure thing, man. Discuss away. In fact, I'll move this to the training forum so discussion can be had without me needing to approve every post. While I've coached a few weightlifters, I'm not a weightlifting coach and don't claim tons of expertise in this area.

[mbasic]

Here's what I think .... using my interpretations of various BBM concepts.
Context here is an "advanced" athlete, or one who is desensitized to Training.

CONTESTED LIFTS MUST BE "PRACTICED".
This would be analogous to a power-lifter squatting, dead-lifting, and benching [email protected]'s often.
But in Olympic Lifting program: Snatch, Clean n Jerk, and Front Squat.
duh....Capt.Obvious
I do NOT think doing repeated/excessive numbers heavy lifts (classic lifts) drive progress or adaptations.
I think that is counter productive, and "expensive" from a recovery standpoint.
I don't see much point in doing maximum back squats (1RM's or even 92-95%x1 type lifts for BS).
You could maybe use back squat ([email protected]) as a "gauge" for strength increases/progress....
but that might be better for a heavy front squat.
Volume wise back squats cannot be beat; they are mandatory. Probably twice weekly.

FREQUENCY, VOLUME, and HYPERTROPHY.
(talking advanced/seasoned lifters here).
I think you have to squat or pull almost every day...and then that means, with intelligent loads.
By every day, I mean at least 5-6 days a week.
And yes, most serious Olympic lifters are doing this (Capt.Obv.).
I think this is where the idea comes from that Olympic Lifters don't lift heavy, or squat enough (ripptoe etal).
If you are lifting 6 days a week, you probably can't [email protected]% w/ 7 min rests on Monday...and be expected to
have a productive week.
You are (just) doing the slow lifts for hypertrophy, and for specific strength increases.
You must hit enough daily volume to stimulate an adaption (MPS) , but not burn yourself out fatigue-wise.

EXERCISE VARIATION & RBE ISSUES
This kind of takes care of itself with the typical stuff Olympic Lifters do (variants, pull, etc)
Back Squat and Front squat and Clean Recoveries.
Snatch Pulls and Clean Pulls and other pulls (RDL, SLDL, GMs, etc)
I wouldn't conventional deadlift, I would do heavy clean pulls before conv. deadlift.
Mix in there some pressing, and you have a pretty good mix of movements to where nothing gets "stale".

UPPER BODY.
Some overhead pressing would be useful if you are weak there, from a hypertrophy standpoint....
....just the strength the shoulders. If one is terribly weak, then yes, bench pressing.
I would keep rowing and chinning to a minimum.
Maybe specific strength movements: like Sots Snatch Press, Press in Split, Overhead Squats, etc.

SPECIFICITY:
Front Squats for clean recoveries ... and helps the jerk too IMO.
Clean Pulls for cleans,
Snatch Pulls for snatches
Back squats for everything...probably high-bar, and trying to stay upright with good balance.

From this I came up with (and am trying it myself now):
...assuming lifter has "good" technique; not for "learning".

DAY 1 - (low stress day)
Front Squat - [email protected] (stretch-out the build up to the top set over 5-6 singles)
Snatch - (say 1x5 @ 85-90%; every now and again [email protected]%)
Snatch Pull 6s x 3r (105-110% best snatch)

DAY 2 - (high stress day)
Clean n Jerk - [email protected]~90% (every now and then 95%)
HBBS - 4-5s x 5r @ 72%; good form, good tempo, adjust loads accordingly
Press: Sots SN; or simply OHP ... [email protected] 75%

DAY 3 - (more stress day)
Snatch - light technique thing: High hang sn; tall snatch; something ezpz for reps
Rack Jerk - [email protected]%
Clean Pull - (105% best clean or more) 5x5

DAY 4 - (low stress day)
Snatch - 6-10x1 @ 80%ish
Press Variant: OHP, OHS, Sots SN Press, Press in Split, etc

DAY 5 - (more stress day)
Clean n Jerk - [email protected]%
Front Squat - 6-7s x 3r all reps should clean (idk...75%+/-?)
Snatch High Pull fr. Blocks - 5x5 (upper body thing basically + snatch tech.work)

DAY 6 - (more stress day)
Snatch - 8x1 @ 80%
HBBS - Paused 4x5, probably -10%+/- of D2 squats
RDL - 4x5 ... use good judgement

DAY 7 - (rest)


NOTES:
Snatch needs to be prioritized, as its the most technique dependent.
Jerk is 2nd ... the next-most technique dependent.
Clean is last ...
Back squatting x2/ week (2 vol days)
Front squatting x2/ week (1 vol day & 1 hvy.day)
Pulling 2x week: RDLs and the clean pulls.....(not counting the snatch pulls).
Depending how you Snatch pull (set up, etc) ...they are somewhat a hybrid between a "squat" & a "dead".
They ARE tasking ... if done correctly with the correct load and rep scheme.

Just a sample based on the typical weaknesses I see.
Not a coach, just a care observer.