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Ending LP - when is it reasonable to question recovery?

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  • Ending LP - when is it reasonable to question recovery?

    I'm working my way through the programming podcast, and I'd like a little clarification on the comment austin made about the average place for an LP to end being mid or upper 200s. I think SS left a lot of people with the impression that if you weren't at least getting to 300 (as a male) then it was safe to assume there was a problem with recovery and/or movement pattern mechanics.

    You guys note that Austin ended his LP at 285x5... but he weighed like 185 when he stalled right? If he had bulked up to the Rip-approved 200 pounds, he could have expected to be in the low 300s pretty comfortably as a moderately-gifted athlete.

    I guess the tl;dr of this question is: If a 220 pound lifter stalls at 270 for LP, and feels pretty sure that he's recovering effectively and keeping the bar over mid-foot, would you recommend that he move on? Or is this number just so damn low for a lifter of this size that you're forced to assume that recovery or form is shot out?

  • #2
    If I had pushed my weight up to 200+ lbs on the LP, that would have represented a ~50 lb weight gain in approximately 3 months. That is a profoundly stupid thing to do just to force your squat up to a mediocre 300 lbs on a novice program, compared to more intelligent management of your weight / body composition and training stress.

    If a 220 lb lifter stalls at 270 lbs on the LP, and don't have evidence of other things going on, then we have them move on. The idea that "you're not lifting enough to move on" is probably harmful insofar as it results in people continually resetting and cycling through the same training repeatedly, sometimes for years. As you may have learned from the programming podcasts, there is a huge range of inter-individual variation in training response that determines how much adaptation one will get out of a given dose of stress. Once you have evidence that you have stopped adapting, the stress needs to be adjusted. As we said in the podcast, if it were fundamentally recovery-limited, you'd just be able to train less frequently and make more progress ... which doesn't work.
    IG / YT

    Comment


    • #3
      Got it. Thanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        I ended up writing a post that's too long. I want to throw in at the top that this isn't an attack. I respect ya, I appreciate ya, and I love ya but, respectfully, you guys need to get real

        Originally posted by Austin Baraki View Post
        If I had pushed my weight up to 200+ lbs on the LP, that would have represented a ~50 lb weight gain in approximately 3 months. That is a profoundly stupid thing to do just to force your squat up to a mediocre 300 lbs on a novice program, compared to more intelligent management of your weight / body composition and training stress.
        On the one hand, it's awesome that you're speaking the truth. On the other hand, if this is how you've felt the whole time it's disappointing that you didn't speak up publicly sooner.

        Austin, where do you think we are getting that gaining weight on LP rapidly is a good idea? Let's see what comes up when I google "gain weight novice lp" in an incognito window

        Result 1 - 2016 Jordan: http://startingstrength.com/resource...p/t-69705.html

        There's no hard and fast answer here, but I usually give people 3-4 months for a true LP with accompanying rapid weight gain.
        (emphasis added by me)

        I realize Jordan had an asshole boss breathing down his neck at the time. But it does have good SEO and his name is still attached.

        Result 3 - 2013 Jordan, on barbell medicine.com :
        Look, if you’re a 16-23 year old male and <165 lbs, you need to gain a significant amount of body weight, like yesterday, in order to be facilitate the fastest rate of strength and muscle size acquisition. This is done through food, like LOTS of it....
        You have one chance in your life to put on muscle at an almost unnatural rate. This moment in time also coincides with the ability to gain a tremendous amount of strength, if you’ll only eat to facilitate this process. For 3 months forget about your abs so you can build the ice chest to put the 6-pack in.
        Jordan was not the only BBMer encouraging Rippetoad. Austin, you yourself had a popular podcast with rip called "the special snowflake problem"
        The description reads:
        Austin Baraki and Mark Rippetoe discuss the use of screening tests and the prevailing thinking that each person is a unique snowflake needing endless modification to tried and proven, albeit harder, methods.

        Many of us were poorly served by following R.I.P's advice to excess. But, up until February, BBM endorsed that excess. I was introduced to Starting Strength through BBM, and I'm definitely not the only one. And since you all were the strongest SSCs who also produced the best content, your old stuff still comes up in search results on SS doctrinal questions! A newbie who isn't on top of stale forum beef probably won't even know past BBM advice is "a profoundly stupid thing to do". I saw Jordan make a similarly strongly worded statement in an instagram comment. Please, for the love of gainzZzzz, at least put corrections like this in places where people can find them!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post
          On the one hand, it's awesome that you're speaking the truth. On the other hand, if this is how you've felt the whole time it's disappointing that you didn't speak up publicly sooner.
          There are many things we have found ourselves able to think much more clearly about since leaving, and have therefore changed our minds on (Tom has echoed this sentiment as well). Furthermore, we make no attempt to hide the fact that we have changed our minds, as opposed to just changing our recommendations and pretending it's what we've always said.

          So ... I'm not sure how else you'd like for us to "get real".

          Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post
          Jordan was not the only BBMer encouraging Rippetoad. Austin, you yourself had a popular podcast with rip called "the special snowflake problem"
          I'd recommend you listen to that particular podcast rather than paste a vague description here, because it does not support your point. That podcast was discussing the role (or lack thereof) for musculoskeletal screening prior to learning the barbell lifts, and is an argument that we stand by today. So this point is irrelevant.

          Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post
          Please, for the love of gainzZzzz, at least put corrections like this in places where people can find them!
          How, exactly, do you propose we go edit things published on the SS website that we now disagree with? Our corrections are everywhere. Articles, newsletters, podcasts, IG Lives, etc. We're talking about this stuff in every way we can think of short of publishing a book (which, incidentally, is underway as well).
          IG / YT

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post
            I ended up writing a post that's too long. I want to throw in at the top that this isn't an attack. I respect ya, I appreciate ya, and I love ya but, respectfully, you guys need to get real



            On the one hand, it's awesome that you're speaking the truth. On the other hand, if this is how you've felt the whole time it's disappointing that you didn't speak up publicly sooner.

            Austin, where do you think we are getting that gaining weight on LP rapidly is a good idea? Let's see what comes up when I google "gain weight novice lp" in an incognito window

            Result 1 - 2016 Jordan: http://startingstrength.com/resource...p/t-69705.html

            (emphasis added by me)

            I realize Jordan had an asshole boss breathing down his neck at the time. But it does have good SEO and his name is still attached.

            Result 3 - 2013 Jordan, on barbell medicine.com :


            Jordan was not the only BBMer encouraging Rippetoad. Austin, you yourself had a popular podcast with rip called "the special snowflake problem"
            The description reads:


            Many of us were poorly served by following R.I.P's advice to excess. But, up until February, BBM endorsed that excess. I was introduced to Starting Strength through BBM, and I'm definitely not the only one. And since you all were the strongest SSCs who also produced the best content, your old stuff still comes up in search results on SS doctrinal questions! A newbie who isn't on top of stale forum beef probably won't even know past BBM advice is "a profoundly stupid thing to do". I saw Jordan make a similarly strongly worded statement in an instagram comment. Please, for the love of gainzZzzz, at least put corrections like this in places where people can find them!
            Hugh, I am quite intrigued by the idea that this isn't an attack. What do you think it is? What do you think all of the BBM content and conversation we are all having is intended to do???

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't see it as an attack really, he was pretty constructive (maybe not when talking about Rippetoe but hey).

              I was not aware either that you had changed your recommendations in regards to novice bodyweight standards but I'm glad you have. Honestly one of my biggest regrets is trying to bulk through LP from 125lbs to 180lbs as a 24 year old male. I had asked Jordan in an IG live back in September that my lifts had stalled very early and told him my weight progress so far, and he said I needed to get to 180lbs (I really hope I'm not misquoting but this is what he seemed to be saying, his statement was pretty direct). I ended up just getting so fat because my lifts were way behind what I was "supposed" to be lifting at the end of my LP, especially since I'm a young male and SS says that basically means free gains. And the weight on the bar just wasn't even moving.

              You're recent programming podcasts have been very enlightening and that definitely opened my eyes to the variance in strength gain responses, and not just feeling terrible about my lack of progress in line with the norm or that I'm being lazy with my training despite ticking all the boxes. But I had thought your bodyweight recommendations for novices was still roughly the same as that of SS - being that you need to bulk close enough to your "ideal" bodyweight through the novice phase, I believe ~180lbs for a 5'8 male was commonly recommended. If I have missed some article or video I apologise. You guys are still pretty much my only source for lifting advice right now along with RTS. I've gotten a much better idea of pain/injury management because of BBM, have all your templates, and don't really plan to change programming right now so I really hope this isn't seen as an attack.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Austin Baraki View Post
                How, exactly, do you propose we go edit things published on the SS website that we now disagree with? Our corrections are everywhere. Articles, newsletters, podcasts, IG Lives, etc. We're talking about this stuff in every way we can think of short of publishing a book (which, incidentally, is underway as well).
                To go a step farther, proof of the existence of anyone who now disagrees with/has split with SS is slowly being removed from their site, including training logs. I doubt those same people will be allowed to make addendums to their SS articles, which are methodically being redirected to new articles written by "sanctioned" coaches. Honestly, give it time and there might not be articles to redact.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post
                  I ended up writing a post that's too long. I want to throw in at the top that this isn't an attack. I respect ya, I appreciate ya, and I love ya but, respectfully, you guys need to get real

                  On the one hand, it's awesome that you're speaking the truth. On the other hand, if this is how you've felt the whole time it's disappointing that you didn't speak up publicly sooner.
                  We've specifically said that we have changed our minds on things over time- following the evidence- and that produced quite a bit of tension between the two groups. We've not said anything to the contrary so far so...I think we've been getting pretty real.

                  Austin, where do you think we are getting that gaining weight on LP rapidly is a good idea? Let's see what comes up when I google "gain weight novice lp" in an incognito window

                  Result 1 - 2016 Jordan: http://startingstrength.com/resource...p/t-69705.html

                  (emphasis added by me)
                  Hugh, what is interesting is that while trying to prove your point you posted something out of context that doesn't even support what you're saying. Not exactly confidence-inspiring stuff.

                  The post you referenced was to MarcF, whom I told that he didn't need to gain weight and specifically I said this:

                  There's no hard and fast answer here, but I usually give people 3-4 months for a true LP with accompanying rapid weight gain. After that, it's slower (if underweight to begin with) over time, maintenance, or even a cut. I don't think that BW is holding you back or keeping you from being less injured so it'd be hard to suggest you need to gain weight, you know?

                  There's no harm in gaining more weight acutely, per se', but it's not really making you any stronger yet.
                  I'm not sure what is really wrong with that other than I don't think I'd care as much about running LP in the first place anymore and I would tell Marc specifically that he should probably lose weight, but that's since we know him now...

                  I realize Jordan had an asshole boss breathing down his neck at the time. But it does have good SEO and his name is still attached.

                  Result 3 - 2013 Jordan, on barbell medicine.com :

                  Look, if you’re a 16-23 year old male and <165 lbs, you need to gain a significant amount of body weight, like yesterday, in order to be facilitate the fastest rate of strength and muscle size acquisition. This is done through food, like LOTS of it....

                  You have one chance in your life to put on muscle at an almost unnatural rate. This moment in time also coincides with the ability to gain a tremendous amount of strength, if you’ll only eat to facilitate this process. For 3 months forget about your abs so you can build the ice chest to put the 6-pack in.
                  Again, out of context so...that's neat. I would probably put more qualifiers up now about height, waist, etc. but I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this in the context it was written in.

                  Many of us were poorly served by following R.I.P's advice to excess. But, up until February, BBM endorsed that excess.
                  I don't think that's true considering the advice given on the nutrition forum when I was moderator and articles and podcasts performed during the time period you're discussing. I guess I just don't see it being this huge change and only if one didn't actually read, listen, or watch what we were doing before could they make the claims you're making in good conscious.

                  A newbie who isn't on top of stale forum beef probably won't even know past BBM advice is "a profoundly stupid thing to do". I saw Jordan make a similarly strongly worded statement in an instagram comment. Please, for the love of gainzZzzz, at least put corrections like this in places where people can find them!
                  That's probably fair, but how are we supposed to go back and add clarifications/caveats/nuance to existing articles or posts on another website that we do not own, have been banned from, etc.? Not really possible, so we'll just keep putting out more content and if people read the stuff I think we're going to be okay.

                  Also, consider using your real name on the forum.
                  Barbell Medicine "With you from bench to bedside"
                  ///Website /// Instagram /// Peri™ Rx /// Whey Rx /// Barbell Medicine Podcast/// Newsletter /// Seminars ///

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by davidvanlegendary View Post
                    I don't see it as an attack really, he was pretty constructive (maybe not when talking about Rippetoe but hey).

                    I was not aware either that you had changed your recommendations in regards to novice bodyweight standards but I'm glad you have.
                    We didn't have previous recommendations for novice bw standards and we don't now so...not sure what's changed really?


                    Honestly one of my biggest regrets is trying to bulk through LP from 125lbs to 180lbs as a 24 year old male. I had asked Jordan in an IG live back in September that my lifts had stalled very early and told him my weight progress so far, and he said I needed to get to 180lbs (I really hope I'm not misquoting but this is what he seemed to be saying, his statement was pretty direct). I ended up just getting so fat because my lifts were way behind what I was "supposed" to be lifting at the end of my LP, especially since I'm a young male and SS says that basically means free gains. And the weight on the bar just wasn't even moving.
                    I would be interested to know the exact exchange we had for sure. I may make the same recommendation depending on additional context, which is also tough via IG live.

                    But I had thought your bodyweight recommendations for novices was still roughly the same as that of SS - being that you need to bulk close enough to your "ideal" bodyweight through the novice phase, I believe ~180lbs for a 5'8 male was commonly recommended.
                    We have never specifically said that. We said that if you're underweight, undertrained, and in the right demographic etc. that gaining a large amount of weight during LP is reasonable. I would admit that 5 years ago, I would probably say that management was a "good idea" and now I'd say it's "reasonable" though in both instances I'd prefer to have more caveats for a blanket recommendation.

                    The main differences in novice management for us now compared to before center around programming- not bodyweight. I just don't see huge differences in our approach to managing bodyweight during the recent time period.
                    Barbell Medicine "With you from bench to bedside"
                    ///Website /// Instagram /// Peri™ Rx /// Whey Rx /// Barbell Medicine Podcast/// Newsletter /// Seminars ///

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leah Lutz View Post

                      Hugh, I am quite intrigued by the idea that this isn't an attack. What do you think it is? What do you think all of the BBM content and conversation we are all having is intended to do???
                      I think it's unsolicited, but needed, advice.


                      Originally posted by Austin Baraki View Post
                      So ... I'm not sure how else you'd like for us to "get real".
                      I'll be more direct. I'd like you to "get real" by learning how the internet works. People do research by typing random questions into Google. Whenever somebody does this with SS and nutrition it's old BBM content that comes up. I'm not expecting you to do anything to this old content. If it's hosted on your site, however, you could presumably do something with it. Otherwise you'd have to produce new content that comes up higher in Google search results.

                      Why do you think SS is deleting all traces of competing programming approaches from SS.com? So Google doesn't index anything other than SS approved programming!

                      Originally posted by Austin Baraki View Post
                      How, exactly, do you propose we go edit things published on the SS website that we now disagree with? Our corrections are everywhere. Articles, newsletters, podcasts, IG Lives, etc. We're talking about this stuff in every way we can think of short of publishing a book (which, incidentally, is underway as well).
                      I propose you ensure your new content, with your new opinions will overtake the old content in search results. you could also encourage SS to delete old content you disagree with. they seem to enjoy deleting your stuff.

                      Both the volume and the quality of the content you guys have produced since the split is impressive. But unfortunately most of it is irrelevant unless you're enough of a fan to be dialed into those feeds. The articles are the only content that get indexed by Google (IG lives? really? those disappear after 24 hours). And afaik the only article post split is a pretty anodyne open letter that makes it sound like the separation was over a difference in opinion on programming early intermediates.

                      I'm seeing pretty strong denunciations from BBM in places nobody will see: forum threads, instagram comments, instagram lives. But I'm a BBM superfan. As far as the rest of the world can see, your opinions remain the same. I'm sorry everybody seems to take this personally. I'm a fan of your content, I just want to make sure the world gets to see it.

                      P.S I'm not interested on my real name being indexed by Google so potential employers can see me bickering on the internet about exercise with random people. If you're worried I'm a troll feel free to PM me and I'll share my contact info and even my life story if you're interested.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post

                        The main differences in novice management for us now compared to before center around programming- not bodyweight. I just don't see huge differences in our approach to managing bodyweight during the recent time period.
                        If you want to say that you've always been consistent, that's fine. But if you look at my post in context of the comment I was replying to:

                        If I had pushed my weight up to 200+ lbs on the LP, that would have represented a ~50 lb weight gain in approximately 3 months. That is a profoundly stupid thing to dojust to force your squat up to a mediocre 300 lbs on a novice program, compared to more intelligent management of your weight / body composition and training stress.
                        How are your recommendations out of context for the skinny Austins of the world? It sounds like he weighed 150. Is it reasonable for somebody like him to gain a large amount of weight? Because his statement here makes it sound extremely unreasonable.

                        That gap between what you and Austin are saying is what led me to think perhaps BBM had been browbeaten into saying otherwise publicly while you all were associated with SS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We do appreciate your concern for our audience. However, just telling us to "ensure" our content overtakes old content in search results is not a particularly specific or helpful suggestion. We will continue working to put out high quality information and content based on our current understanding and thinking. This will also continue to evolve over time, such that some of our current opinions will likely be different in the future. It's a constant, ongoing process, and is not as simple to just flip a switch as you seem to suggest we do.
                          IG / YT

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hugh Jass View Post

                            If you want to say that you've always been consistent, that's fine. But if you look at my post in context of the comment I was replying to:

                            How are your recommendations out of context for the skinny Austins of the world? It sounds like he weighed 150. Is it reasonable for somebody like him to gain a large amount of weight? Because his statement here makes it sound extremely unreasonable.

                            That gap between what you and Austin are saying is what led me to think perhaps BBM had been browbeaten into saying otherwise publicly while you all were associated with SS.
                            I'm saying that our nutrition advices has been fairly consistent over this time period, yes. If Austin had asked me (or himself) at the beginning of LP if he should gain weight slowly or rapidly we'd have told him it was fine to gain a significant amount of weight during this time period. At the end of his LP, neither of us would advise more weight gain in the absence of a programming change. I think the rapidity to hop off SSLP (or even insistence in running LP in the first place) is the biggest change.

                            Austin is responding to the previous poster that further increasing his BW in order to extend LP would've been stupid. I think this is, in fact, a stronger position than we used to have as well. Previously we might've said let's do some modifications to LP to keep it going, whereas we would now probably not routinely advise LP at all unless someone was already doing it and making great progress.

                            I don't think that you've really presented a big shift nutritionally that is manifesting as a big SEO blunder or is something we can actively manage, Tim. That said, I do think you're being rather unpleasant (and not helpful) with your demeanor and overall posting style. If you'd like to run our SEO, you can send us your resume.
                            Barbell Medicine "With you from bench to bedside"
                            ///Website /// Instagram /// Peri™ Rx /// Whey Rx /// Barbell Medicine Podcast/// Newsletter /// Seminars ///

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Austin Baraki View Post
                              We do appreciate your concern for our audience. However, just telling us to "ensure" our content overtakes old content in search results is not a particularly specific or helpful suggestion.
                              I think the point he's trying to make is comments like yours in this thread, and Jordan's on his instragram feed would better serve your audience on pages they'd actually find in a google search (e.g. "it’ll only be useful for another year or two with regards to marketing for a coach and then will go the way of the do do bird, as there is no indication that management will tolerate the necessary academic discussions nor business development for continued service and product improvement."). Or forgetting SEO entirely, somewhere more prominently on your website. So that when I want to find out what BBM's position is on SS, the SSNLP, excessive weight gain, or anything else where you've significantly diverged from your former employer, I don't have to be a BBM superfan that consumes basically all your content.

                              The tone you guys have taken in your podcasts, in forum responses, and on other, less transparent media sources is absolutely different than the one here: http://www.barbellmedicine.com/openletter/ -- which is featured on your home page still. I understand the desire to try and split amicably and take the higher ground when your former colleagues so quickly went low -- but as a potentially new BBM customer I'd most likely conclude the only difference between you guys and SS is how you program early intermediates (unless I spent a lot of time listening to all your podcasts and reading your forum and instragram posts). And if I did conclude that I might make the monumental mistake of signing up for SSOC, being convinced to gain too much weight, and spending 4 months in reset hell. Oh wait, that's just what I did.

                              But seriously, let's google "barbell medicine starting strength" (in a private browser window).

                              First result is the open-letter. I'd probably conclude if I wanted personal coaching and I trusted BBM, I'd be better served by BBM now. Otherwise, there's no evidence I shouldn't do SSNLP on my own as written in the blue book.

                              Another top result: http://www.barbellmedicine.com/quickstart/

                              Hopefully I clicked on the top result first. Because now I'd definitely conclude BBM wants me to do SS as written, which usually involves wasting a bunch of time on resets and getting fatter than is productive or healthy.

                              As Hugh said, Stef is going around deleting all your content that diverges from their new brand. You can take a page out of their book. You have no control over the startingstrength domain, but you absolutely do have control over your old content that blatantly supports SS and SSNLP on this domain -- and how you layout your home page.


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