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Missing [email protected] due to poor warm up/other reasons

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  • Missing [email protected] due to poor warm up/other reasons

    Hi.

    I have this issue that I was facing ever since I started using RPE.

    Sometimes I would miss my [email protected], most likely due to bad warm up. It would be [email protected], sometimes [email protected], even though I ate well and had decent sleep the night before. Should I attempt [email protected] again on a same weight, if I feel like the number is definitely off? Or would it negatively affect my progress? I've noticed that very often my second attempt is way better than my first. However attempt 3 is never good and I usually tend do avoid it.

    I'll give you an example. Last week my [email protected] on a deadlift was 405lbs. Today I started my training session with these warm ups:
    (double overhand, no straps) -> 135x5 reps, 185x5 reps, 225x5 reps, (put on straps) -> 275х4 reps, 315x4 reps, 365x3 reps, 385x1 rep. Pit stop at the bathroom. Come back in well rested - attempting 405 lbs and I get [email protected] attempt with straps on. I rest around 2 minutes, take off straps, go mixed grip and I did 405x2 reps @RPE9 (did 2 reps just be sure).

    So what's up? My form is on point, I often take videos of myself and apply cues from form checks on VLOGs. Could my 25 minute walk to the gym in the snow be affecting the amount of volume I need to warm up? But then again sometimes it would happen in the summer.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    It looks like you are doing far too many warm up sets with far too many reps. You are killing yourself with heavy weight plus heavy volume before even getting to the [email protected]

    My full deadlift warmup and workout progression last week:

    Deadlift
    No straps up to and including [email protected] I use a hook grip. The first three sets with no RPE are just the lead up quick moving light warmups; plates on and lift, new plates on and lift, no breaks. Then from 130kgs are the "working warmups". Breaks between sets is about 30s up to 130kgs (286lbs), then 1.5 to 2 minutes before 140kgs (308lbs), then 1.5 to 2 minutes before 150kgs (330lbs), then 2 minutes before 165kgs (363lbs), then 2 to 3 minutes before 175kgs (385lbs). Then 3 minutes between subsequent sets. Straps on only for the working sets (the last three sets).

    These are all based on RPE, which it seems you may not be applying to gauging and adjusting your weights on the day.
    Log

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi,

      This [email protected] before doing working sets is something i started to see often in thos forum. Is it something reccomended in order to determine your training weights for the session and is it something that should be included in training?

      Comment


      • Wazgrel
        Wazgrel commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah, you can see how it applies to training in their free template The Bridge.

    • #4
      Originally posted by teddyd View Post
      It looks like you are doing far too many warm up sets with far too many reps. You are killing yourself with heavy weight plus heavy volume before even getting to the [email protected]

      My full deadlift warmup and workout progression last week:

      Deadlift

      No straps up to and including [email protected] I use a hook grip. The first three sets with no RPE are just the lead up quick moving light warmups; plates on and lift, new plates on and lift, no breaks. Then from 130kgs are the "working warmups". Breaks between sets is about 30s up to 130kgs (286lbs), then 1.5 to 2 minutes before 140kgs (308lbs), then 1.5 to 2 minutes before 150kgs (330lbs), then 2 minutes before 165kgs (363lbs), then 2 to 3 minutes before 175kgs (385lbs). Then 3 minutes between subsequent sets. Straps on only for the working sets (the last three sets).

      These are all based on RPE, which it seems you may not be applying to gauging and adjusting your weights on the day.
      I don't see that big of a difference between our warm ups. I'd argue that you have even more volume on the warm ups. :-) We have 7 warm up sets, you just do a little more volume in the beginning. I'll reformat my warm up similar to yours (minus RPE, because I don't think it's useful on warm up sets):

      (~60kg) 135x5
      (~80kg) 185x5
      (~100kg) 225x5
      (~120kg) 275x4
      (~140kg) 315x4
      (~160kg) 365x3
      (~170kg) 385x1
      (~180kg) [email protected] (that sometimes feels like a 10, unless I do a second attempt after a short break and it becomes RPE 8 - 8.5)

      My question was, is doing a second attempt on [email protected] is detrimental to my progress? Or should I do something about my warm ups?

      I remember Austin or Jordan saying that sometimes doing 1 approximated set of your prescribed backoffs before [email protected] can be useful to warming up. But then the question is - does that set count towards your backoffs after [email protected]?

      Comment


      • #5
        I think it's just a feeling on the first try that it's RPE9 or RPE10 while in reality it's probably just a slowly pulled RPE8 that looks and feels like a 10.

        That being said I think both of your warmups are too excessive. I don't see the point in doing so many reps in the later warmup sets as well. Here my deadlift warmups for instance:

        60kg x5
        100kg x3
        (sometimes when feeling I need some more warmup: 120 x1)
        140kg x1
        160kg x1
        170kg [email protected]

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Wazgrel View Post

          I don't see that big of a difference between our warm ups. I'd argue that you have even more volume on the warm ups. :-) We have 7 warm up sets, you just do a little more volume in the beginning. I'll reformat my warm up similar to yours (minus RPE, because I don't think it's useful on warm up sets):

          (~60kg) 135x5
          (~80kg) 185x5
          (~100kg) 225x5
          (~120kg) 275x4
          (~140kg) 315x4
          (~160kg) 365x3
          (~170kg) 385x1
          (~180kg) [email protected] (that sometimes feels like a 10, unless I do a second attempt after a short break and it becomes RPE 8 - 8.5)

          My question was, is doing a second attempt on [email protected] is detrimental to my progress? Or should I do something about my warm ups?

          I remember Austin or Jordan saying that sometimes doing 1 approximated set of your prescribed backoffs before [email protected] can be useful to warming up. But then the question is - does that set count towards your backoffs after [email protected]?
          My warm-up for a [email protected] with 180kg would look very similar to yours.
          And the first few weeks I did this, the single also felt like a 10 instead of an 8. But After a few weeks I got more confident in lifting heavy singles and the singles at the same intensity were rated 8 instead of 9 or 10.
          You learn to pull heavy shit from the floor with these singles @8.
          I know now that the feeling I get from lifting that super heavy barbell from the floor is not @10, it's just what it feels like to lift heavy.
          I don't have this with other lifts. Just with the DL.
          Maybe you are in the same situation I was.

          Comment


          • #7
            Hmm. Well, I don't think I can get away with doing less warm ups like jwls suggested. Sometimes I feel stronger by the end of my back offs, which is saying something. lol
            As for getting better on [email protected] - I've been on the RPE system since early summer, so its been a couple of months. And I'm beginning to notice that I'm missing more [email protected] recently, than before. Though before it happened as well.

            Could it be that I live in a colder climate and I take a 25 minute walk to the gym in the cold? Sounds silly but I really don't know what else could it be.

            Comment


            • #8
              It could be grip issues if you always fail from the floor and not half-way or at lock-out.
              But you're using straps, so that would be highly unlikely.

              Anyway, I would only use the straps for the back-off sets.

              I think I've only missed a [email protected] once and I still got it at a second try by staying with it. I just kept applying power until it moved. Took about 3 seconds. 3 seconds are an eternity when pulling on a heavy barbell.
              Once the rep was done, I could still rate it @8.

              Comment


              • #9
                Do you record each [email protected] ? And how exactly are you missing the [email protected] mid lift or won’t budge off the floor ?

                Comment


                • #10
                  The misses should be really uncommon. I missed only one.
                  Sometimes you just have a bad day.
                  I did a double @7 or 8 with only 5% less and the single just didn't come from the floor the first try.

                  I log all my working sets. Every training.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Hey, rho. Those 3 seconds that take to pull the barbell off the floor you're talking about could be your shoes. If you use soft running shoes - sometimes they deform under pressure, and it takes awhile for the body to find the proper balancing point to push off of. I've had this issue before on rack pulls.

                    Try any flat rough shoes. Many people prefer Chuck Taylors, some use deadlift slippers. Jordan and Austin are using Nike Davinho, and in some of the streams Jordan suggested any 'indoors soccer' shoes. Going in raw, in socks is also an option. Try it out if you find your pulls taking too long off the floor.

                    Comment


                    • rho
                      rho commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I use Adidas wrestling shoes for DLs.
                      The 3 second pull was only once. What I learned from it is that when the bar feels very heavy in the hands it doesn't mean I can't lift it from the floor. Just keep going until I win!

                  • #12
                    Re: warmups. I think they're mostly fine except probably the triple at 365. If 405x1 is an @8, that means 365 is ~84%. That's a legit training set. After the 315x4 I'd probably go 355x1, 385x1, 405x1.

                    The REAL key, though, is that your 385x1 should be informing you on what your 405x1 is going to feel like. If 405x1 was a legit @10, then 385x1 should have felt like an @8.5 or @9.

                    Comment


                    • Wazgrel
                      Wazgrel commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That's the whole point that I don't understand. 385x1 does feel like an RPE 8 - 8.5. First attempt on [email protected] felt like 10, and it was in fact 10 because I couldn't get it off the floor when I tried my second rep. Then about 1 minute later I take off straps and pull 405 for 2 reps at RPE9, which is where it should be.

                      I wonder why this is happening, and asking if a second attempt for my [email protected] is detrimental to my overall training.

                  • #13
                    Originally posted by Wazgrel View Post

                    I don't see that big of a difference between our warm ups. I'd argue that you have even more volume on the warm ups. :-) We have 7 warm up sets, you just do a little more volume in the beginning. I'll reformat my warm up similar to yours (minus RPE, because I don't think it's useful on warm up sets):

                    (~60kg) 135x5
                    (~80kg) 185x5
                    (~100kg) 225x5
                    (~120kg) 275x4
                    (~140kg) 315x4
                    (~160kg) 365x3
                    (~170kg) 385x1
                    (~180kg) [email protected] (that sometimes feels like a 10, unless I do a second attempt after a short break and it becomes RPE 8 - 8.5)

                    My question was, is doing a second attempt on [email protected] is detrimental to my progress? Or should I do something about my warm ups?

                    I remember Austin or Jordan saying that sometimes doing 1 approximated set of your prescribed backoffs before [email protected] can be useful to warming up. But then the question is - does that set count towards your backoffs after [email protected]?
                    I think the extra attempt is detrimental if it fatigues your muscles so you can't work through the rest of the sets. Having one set fee like a 10 and the next you can do [email protected] just doesnt seem right to me. The doctahs have said that the previous working set as a warmup to the [email protected] can be included in the total sets, i mean why wouldn't it? It's not like you aren't doing the work there.

                    Sometimes some cycling can help me throught a quicker warmup. When I bike (avid rider in better weathers) I feel like shit for a solid 15 minutes and then everything opens up and I can start working. It just seems that time has a component in getting ready to go, i assume it takes a bit for the chemicals in my body to relax all the blood vesels and whatnot. My point with this anecdote is I've avoided doing the heavy single until at least 10 minutes through a warmup.

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Originally posted by bigbaltic View Post
                      I think the extra attempt is detrimental if it fatigues your muscles so you can't work through the rest of the sets. Having one set fee like a 10 and the next you can do [email protected] just doesnt seem right to me. The doctahs have said that the previous working set as a warmup to the [email protected] can be included in the total sets, i mean why wouldn't it? It's not like you aren't doing the work there.

                      Sometimes some cycling can help me throught a quicker warmup. When I bike (avid rider in better weathers) I feel like shit for a solid 15 minutes and then everything opens up and I can start working. It just seems that time has a component in getting ready to go, i assume it takes a bit for the chemicals in my body to relax all the blood vesels and whatnot. My point with this anecdote is I've avoided doing the heavy single until at least 10 minutes through a warmup.
                      Hmm, right on. I think I will try cycling for 10-15 minutes my next session. Or maybe some extra sets on DLs under 225. Thank you!

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        Cycling to warm up for DLs?
                        Why? What does your cardio have to do with hitting your single @8?
                        Like you said yourself, you do a 25 minute walk trough the snow before your lifting session. If you needed cardio before you start a DL session. You're doing just fine.

                        I really don't think this has anything to do with your warm-up.
                        Don't think it over too hard.
                        Don't do reps you don't need to do (a [email protected] is not a [email protected]!). If you can't get the single from the floor while the "test-single" was a good indication you should be able to lift it: give it a second try. Keep pulling until it comes from the floor.
                        And do a single @8. Not a double @9.
                        If this (missing the single) happens quite frequently, maybe you need to judge the "test-single" better?

                        Comment


                        • Wazgrel
                          Wazgrel commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I guess its not as much for cardio as for actually 'warming up' my body. It's worth a try I guess?

                        • rho
                          rho commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I think it's a waste of energy.
                          If your not warmed up for your single @8, do more warm-up reps. It preps you much better for the [email protected] DL then cycling will.
                          But looking at your warm-up routine now, I doubt this is the cause for missing those singles.
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