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  • Fatigue Management Question

    Hello all, fist time poster here. I came to the forum to see if anyone else has experienced a similar situation but could not find any related topics. Full disclosure: I know absolutely nothing about this stuff.

    Some Stats:
    Male, 27, 6'1", 250lbs, 40" waist, no known health/injury issues. I don't compete, just want to get stronger and bigger muscles.

    I have been lifting for 1.5 years with constant and progressive gains to the main lifts as programmed. I am now at a point where I am exhausted all the time. No matter how much I eat, sleep, or otherwise try to recover more optimally (no known notable stressors in my life), I cannot seem to solve for a strong, ever-present feeling of fatigue after lifting heavy weights. To be clear: I have been able to keep adding weight to the bar when the time calls for it, and to keep dong my program as directed; however I do not know how long I can willpower through this, as the fatigue has been getting stronger. It has gotten to a point where I do not think as clearly throughout the day, frequently get headaches (maybe unrelated, but the timing is definitely correlated), have to walk slowly, etc.

    For some context, here is a recent experience: I went to squat 3 sets of 5 of 360lbs on a Friday. It was a total grinder with the final rep taking about 7 seconds. I took a relaxing trip the next week, and then went to do the same squats on my first session back. I felt like a new man - the weight moved great, I felt great outside the gym, and even the headaches were not noticed. But within 3 weeks I was back down in the dumps.

    My understanding is that generally people my age and well-being should be able to lift 3 days/week and maintain a base level of good feelingness, assuming an appropriate program. So my questions are such:

    1) Is this a typical experience in progressing along the lifting journey and it is time to consider a program with longer periodization windows than one week (i.e. I'm not failing, but the grind is too strong)?

    or,

    2) If this sounds like I just don't take as well to training as the average person, what programming variable changes usually allow folks to manage that more effectively? Also, if this is a consideration, is it a situation where folks might seek treatment, or would they take it as their lot in life?




  • #2
    Forget the three sets of 5 and start the bridge. I couldn't get past a certain point with my LP without hurting myself and with my second run of the bridge I surpassed all of my old PR's

    Comment


    • #3
      Time to move on to The Bridge v1.

      This topic has come up a number of times. After five minutes of looking through this sub-forum:
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...strength-stall
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...-of-motivation
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...nd-sudden-wall
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...-heavy-weights
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...rn-of-quitting
      https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/fo...inst-the-grain

      Get Bridge v1, have a read through the above threads, read more of the forum and get started on BBM. You will be fine and you will be lifting more again soon.
      Log

      Comment


      • #4
        "Switch to the bridge" is an excellent good generic response, but here is why.

        The bridge generally assumes that a (struggling) post novice trainee has had insufficient volume at an inappropriately high intensity. To rectify this, autoregulation of intensity is introduced, and the volume dose the trainee is exposed to ramps up over time. Additionally, the program requires "GPP" with cardio to aid in increasing the trainee's overall work capacity. All these changes would probably be exactly the type of training adjustments appropriate to address your issues.

        Additionally, Jordan has frequently cited studies that strongly correlate >=40" waist sizes in male Caucasians to less desirable health outcomes, and in nearly every case, he recommends that weight loss take precedence over strength gains for these individuals. In your case, this action might pay additional dividends in increasing your work capacity and thus helping with the issues you describe.

        Losing weight does not mean that you can’t still develop new strength gains if your programming is intelligently implemented, and The Bridge qualifies as such in this situation. If you like your results once The Bridge is completed, and wish to continue with BBM style programming that is appropriate for weight loss, you could re-run The Bridge, or switch to the BBM Hypertrophy template.

        I’ll close by quoting a portion of the FAQ I built in Jordan’s nutrition section that applies to some of the above advice:

        Originally posted by Serack View Post
        I’ve finished my LP, Waist >40” can I continue with strength gains on an intermediate program while losing weight?
        This is frequently asked, and individual. Losing some waist size would have good health outcomes. Caloric Deficit is necessary to lose weight. With intelligent intermediate programming (adequate volume at appropriate intensity) you can still train for strength gains while losing fat. One example Q/A.
        Edit: You expressed concern about the ability to "take as well to training as the average person." Something Jordan refers to as "training sensitivity" similar to "protein sensitivity." I think Jordan has discussed lower body fat % (waist size + BMI is a proxy for this) correlating to higher training sensitivity, or at least protein sensitivity. I know I've heard other's discuss it who weren't MD powerlifter trainers.
        Last edited by Serack; 05-02-2019, 07:17 PM.
        Forum topics and other links I've found useful

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you all for the feedback. It seems clear what I should try, so I bought the bridge and will start that on Monday. In addition to Serack's latter point, I will also prioritize the GPP components to reduce the potential risks of being overweight. That was an interesting perspective that I have not heard before. I look forward to learning more stuff like this as I hang around here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kbrownstead View Post
            Thank you all for the feedback. It seems clear what I should try, so I bought the bridge and will start that on Monday. In addition to Serack's latter point, I will also prioritize the GPP components to reduce the potential risks of being overweight. That was an interesting perspective that I have not heard before. I look forward to learning more stuff like this as I hang around here.
            Weight loss comes from caloric deficit. Caloric deficit of course means calories in < calories out, and generally it is a simpler task to manage the "calories in" half of that from a training perspective.

            In otherwords, The Bridge's GPP's primary purpose is to increase your work capacity to allow for better volume management to drive strength gains. The increased calories burned may also help with weight loss, but should not be relied on as the primary driver for that.

            Have you read Jordan's article To be a Beast? Jordan has published a lot of nuance since that article, but it's a great starting point on how to manage nutrition for the purposes of maximizing your strenght training gains, with the third case studdy being more applicable for those who are striving for weight loss while training.



            BTW, you have already demonstrated by buying the program, that you are invested in getting this done, and have also demonstrated your willingness to strive hard in your training. Go at it man! You've got this!

            The Bridge 3.0 template you just bought is the version that has gone through 2 refinements for increased efficacy since Jordan published a free 1.0 PDF version. I don't know if the 3.0 template includes all the narrative in the free PDF. Please let me know for the sake of my future advice to others, and if it doesn't, I highly recommend you download the free PDF and review all the narrative in that, as it is really important reading on the "why" of all the things you do in the program.
            Forum topics and other links I've found useful

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Serack View Post

              Have you read Jordan's article To be a Beast? Jordan has published a lot of nuance since that article, but it's a great starting point on how to manage nutrition for the purposes of maximizing your strenght training gains, with the third case studdy being more applicable for those who are striving for weight loss while training.
              I have not, will definitely check it out.

              Originally posted by Serack View Post

              I don't know if the 3.0 template includes all the narrative in the free PDF. Please let me know for the sake of my future advice to others, and if it doesn't, I highly recommend you download the free PDF and review all the narrative in that, as it is really important reading on the "why" of all the things you do in the program.
              I do not see the intro PDF in the e-mail from the purchase of 3.0, but I did get that sent separately when I signed-up for the site. I will be reading that over the weekend as I prepare for the transition. Thank you for the tip and for the encouragement. I am looking forward to the next steps!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Serack View Post

                The Bridge 3.0 template you just bought is the version that has gone through 2 refinements for increased efficacy since Jordan published a free 1.0 PDF version. I don't know if the 3.0 template includes all the narrative in the free PDF. Please let me know for the sake of my future advice to others, and if it doesn't, I highly recommend you download the free PDF and review all the narrative in that, as it is really important reading on the "why" of all the things you do in the program.
                No, the Downloadable templates do not go into as much detail as the PDF. The Bridge 1.0 should still be the starting point for everybody, even if they don't end up doing the program itself.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kbrownstead View Post


                  I do not see the intro PDF in the e-mail from the purchase of 3.0, but I did get that sent separately when I signed-up for the site. I will be reading that over the weekend as I prepare for the transition. Thank you for the tip and for the encouragement. I am looking forward to the next steps!
                  Just FYI, even though Bridge 3.0 is a refinement from the original Bridge, I have seen Jordan and Austin both recommend to start with v1 as it presents a more gradual introduction of the lifter to new training method post-SSLP.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ionRod View Post

                    No, the Downloadable templates do not go into as much detail as the PDF. The Bridge 1.0 should still be the starting point for everybody, even if they don't end up doing the program itself.
                    Thanks. I have a few of them, but not the one in question so I wondered.

                    Doesn't one of them have a good explanation of Myo reps baked in?

                    Also, kbrownstead, I've found that The Bridge commonly takes longer than many who try it used to take on their programming, especially by week 4. To help manage time, (and for other reasons) do not take more than 3-4 minutes between work sets, and even less for the last few warm-ups. If you want to crunch more time, you can start warming up for the next exercise between work sets of the current exercise.

                    About those other reasons. BBM/RPE based programming is programmed with the understanding that you won't be doing grinding sets that take forever to recover from in order to do the next set, because this type of maximal work is understood to generate too much stress as well as take too long to get in the desired amount of volume in a reasonable amount of time. Thus, waiting longer than 4 minutes between sets would allow you to potentialy lift more weight at the prescribed RPE, generating more stress than is actually programmed under the assumption of 4 or less minutes of rest.
                    Forum topics and other links I've found useful

                    Comment


                    • ionRod
                      ionRod commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yes, they explain how to do Myoreps

                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Serack View Post

                    Thus, waiting longer than 4 minutes between sets would allow you to potentialy lift more weight at the prescribed RPE, generating more stress than is actually programmed under the assumption of 4 or less minutes of rest.
                    This is a great point that I am glad you made. In my current program, I am taking about 7 minutes of rest between work sets: half of it catching my breath, a quarter of it muscles being able to move again, and the last quarter dreading the next set. So while I do not suspect these workouts taking longer than my current ones, I am glad you brought up that the time is important to track for programming purposes.



                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by ionRod View Post

                      Just FYI, even though Bridge 3.0 is a refinement from the original Bridge, I have seen Jordan and Austin both recommend to start with v1 as it presents a more gradual introduction of the lifter to new training method post-SSLP.
                      Thank you for the information. While I am not sure if this is relevant to your point, my current program is not a linear progression. I have been doing intermediate programming for the past 8 months.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by kbrownstead View Post

                        This is a great point that I am glad you made. In my current program, I am taking about 7 minutes of rest between work sets: half of it catching my breath, a quarter of it muscles being able to move again, and the last quarter dreading the next set. So while I do not suspect these workouts taking longer than my current ones, I am glad you brought up that the time is important to track for programming purposes.


                        7 minutes? That seems like a sign that your work capacity desperately needs improved

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by kbrownstead View Post

                          Thank you for the information. While I am not sure if this is relevant to your point, my current program is not a linear progression. I have been doing intermediate programming for the past 8 months.
                          It’s still relevant via 2 routs. As said earlier the free version includes a narrative that explains a lot of the hows and whys of the program rather than just plopping it down on you. This is especially critical for your first time using RPE based weight selection.

                          Second though is that the first week backs off on the volume significantly to give you a chance to recover from the typically higher intensity (but low volume) work the SSLP ends with and then ramps up weekly to get you gradually aclimated to the higher volume load intended.

                          No you aren’t rolling into The Bridge from the end of a grinding, high intensity week of SSLP, instead you are rolling into it from what sounds like even higher intensity grinds from your current intermediate programming so the principle still applies.

                          With this in mind, the BBM coaches recommended to me if you are going to repeat The Bridge, since it begins and ends with a low stress week, cut one of them off at the repeat.
                          Forum topics and other links I've found useful

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Well yeah, recently I finally became to feel better. I had a really continued suffering of depression which was connected to my all-the-time from waking up to going bed, but my friend has recommended some alternative way of 'shutting up' the problem. I still don't know if it's worked as a placebo or if it's a real medication, but his premiumjane product ( https://premiumjane.com/capsules-pills/ - maybe someone is interested) really helped me. What is your opinion on CBD? How did it affect you?

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