In Dalia Zawil’s recent video with you (the genetic potential part to be specific): https://youtu.be/Nvsg8XYtn-k
At around 4:54 in the video you begin discussing recent performances of masters lifters by saying to paraphrase “when you see some of our master lifters and what they’ve been able to do with their totals it gives hope that your performance can continue to improve for a long arc”, what exactly did you mean by your performance can continue to improve for a “long arc”? Sorry if this is a stupid question, just trying to understand better
The long arc in this phrase refers to the continued improvement and competitiveness as they age. While almost everyone at the top of sport is an outlier by definition, consider that David Ricks totaled 1780 in single ply (e.g. equipped) at the age of 35, 14 years after he started competing. He would later total 1829 raw at the age of 57. Pretty cool.
That makes sense, do you think Ricks would theoretically be able to maintain majority of that total (barring any disease processes or major injuries of course) until his death or at least very close to it? Since you have expressed before that sarcopenia or dynapenia are not necessarily inevitable parts of aging, and Ricks right now is in his mid 60’s and seems to still be maintaining the majority of that performance. I have also come across masters lifters such as Ellen Stein or John Laflamme who have managed to stay close to their own respective peaks at even older ages than David Ricks. I’m pretty sure I’ve also seen a 90 year old powerlifter named Joe Stockinger, who at a bodyweight of 147lbs was still capable of deadlifting 405lbs for several reps (open powerlifting says he pulled close to 450lbs raw at age 86 at a similar bodyweight).
So basically, I just wanted your opinion on that, how long do you think lifters such as David Ricks and Ellen Stein would be able to maintain their strength as long as they are not bogged down by diseases or injuries?
Probably not, no. That said, he’s not really at any risk of sarcopenia or similar, but that doesn’t mean he’ll be as strong as he is now until the end. I’m not sure that changes anything either though.
But doesn’t sarcopenia or dynapenia in a literal sense translate to loss of strength and muscle mass? And also what do you mean by it doesn’t change anything? And lastly, how strong do you think he could realistically be till the end, would he be maintaining majority of it or will it decline a whole lot?
Sarcopenia means a loss of muscle tissue and function, dynapenia being the more specific term referring to loss of force. He’s not at risk for either condition due to his current physical development, but just because he’s unlikely to develop either pathology doesn’t mean he’s going to remain a world-class powerlifter in open competition.
I am not confident that I can accurately predict how strong he will be in his final years or how quickly it will change.
That all makes sense, thanks for the reply. I’ve seen you before saying in other forum/instagram posts and the special considerations for older lifters video that strength or muscle mass doesn’t seem to decline much with age if people remain active via resistance training, but wouldn’t a significant loss in total or one of the main lifts indicate a loss in strength or force production?
Oh and also, I was moreso referring to staying close to your own individual strength peak in the big lifts for life, whatever that ends up being rather than just being one of the top open lifters for life (which is why I mentioned John Laflamme, who even though has never been a top open lifter ever since competing from his 20’s, he is still very close to his personal bests on the big three even in his 70’s). I might’ve not been clear enough on that due to hyper focusing on the likes of David Ricks and Ellen Stein, most people will never be world class top open lifters in their life no matter their age or what they do due to the genetic dependency, so I’d think your own individual strength peak on the lifts and staying close to those numbers (within 80-90% or so) is what would matter more. And I thought that is something that could be possible after reading some of you guy’s instagram posts, forum answers and yt videos on aging and training, where the conclusion tended to be that strength or muscle loss is preventable to a great degree and is mostly caused by inactivity. So is that something that is possible or will everyone experience decline levels similar to top level open lifters?
And as a side question after your response, when top level lifters like David do experience declines, will it be solely due to just aging or will there be other factors?
If someone lost a lot of LBM, which usually happens as a result of a disease process, change in functional status, etc., yes, I would predict they wouldn’t be nearly as strong.
Reduction in PL performance doesn’t necessarily mean a loss of fitness adaptations, as performance is far more complicated than that.
I will try and clear things up with respect to aging and training.
We can feel pretty confident that older individuals respond similarly to training as younger individuals, e.g. they gain the same relative amount of strength and hypertrophy as a younger individual would provided the training is meted out appropriately.
Strength decline due to detraining/lack of activity is likely to affect older individuals more than younger individuals, but this is highly individual based on their physiological reserve, reason why they’re detraining (medical condition vs. lack of interest), training history, genetics, etc.
I think that provided one remains in good health, stays mostly injury free, and continues to exercise intelligently, they’re likely to maintain a very good chunk of their peak performance. How much one will lose and at what rate isn’t well established and again, is likely to vary significantly between individuals.
So basically, sports performance is very complicated and as far as PL goes it isn’t just solely about strength, and thus a decrease in PL performance doesn’t necessarily mean the person has lost their strength adaptations from training. So what would be a better way of measuring true strength? Hand dynamometer value?
Yes, sports performance is based on additional factors other than physical fitness.
Strength is force production measured in a specific context, which means it is a performance and it is dynamic. I don’t know what you mean by “true strength” and I think a PL total is a good measure of maximum low velocity strength in the squat, bench press, and deadlift.
I know there are probably a lot of factors that go into this since you said it’s very complicated so it would probably be not smart to ask for all other factors involved, but what might be just one or two examples of other factors that go into sports performance that might cause your PL performance to decline at an older age even though your physical strength itself may remain close to it’s peak?
The same factors that would cause your PL performance to decline (or not increase) at a younger age, e.g. motivation, sleep, mood, environment, etc.
I’m not sure there’s much more to discuss here that should practically change anyone goes about resistance training throughout the lifetime. To reiterate:
Older individuals gain strength and muscle mass at the same relative rate as younger individuals
Performance =/= fitness, though higher levels of fitness do increase performance potential
Declines in strength over a lifetime are correlated more with reduced activity, illness, etc. than age-specific changes in force production
The rate and magnitudes at which people will decline likely vary significantly
I see, that all makes sense. All I genuinely care about is if it’s possible to maintain most of your strength you’ve built through training throughout your entire lifespan. If a reduction in PL performance does not necessarily mean your strength itself has tanked a whole lot then I wouldn’t care much I guess. I know that as you said there will be a lot of variability among people and how much they will maintain throughout their life, but as long as the possibility of maintaining most of it for life exists, I’ll see that as a win.
Thank you for taking the time to reply, I understand all of this a little better now.