Clarification on pain science,passive modalities of recovery, subconcious improvement

Hello Docs,

I have seen all your seminar videos and read several articles and forum posts so I’m well aware of your take on passive modalities like chiro, massage, art etc.

I’m a little confused and hoping you can clarify or provide reference to reading material that would clarify my curiousity. From what I understand, these passive modalities provide a strong sensory response which can distract from the initial probelm and/or provide a placibo effect resulting in improvement. I have also heard you clarify that your not inferring that the pain isn’t real but rather on the sub concious level and can’t be directly controlled by the individual.

I’m unsure of how these two beliefs coincide in some certain circumstances. For example, I have had a tight spot giving me pain in my back that has been reoccurring for many months. Given the fact that the pain would be sub concious and out of my control and also the fact that I don’t believe in art, why does my back loosen up and the pain disappear when I dig a massage ball in that specific spot if I don’t believe it will help but the pain is subconcious and no structural change is happening?

I’m hoping you can provide a quick clarification as well. To what level are these problems neurogical from a medical point of view. When you see YouTube videos of chiropractors making adjustments on people and them being able to hear again (a video with an Australian chiro and a young child) or someone suddenly able to stand, are these things neurogical as well or could they be faked when they really don’t seem to be? Is the neurogical effect that potent? I have noticed the people are on camera (probably want to respond to the therapy because of the camera) and the chiro says placebo inducing things like “you will be able to walk after this and will feel much less pain” etc.

Thanks so much for your time,
I hope I have made myself clear in my inquiry.

  • Adam

Hey Adam,

Thanks for the questions. Pain science is definitely one of my favorite topics to discuss. I want to apologize in advance for the length of this reply but this is a complex topic.

The painful experience is both a conscious experience and has subconscious components. There is emerging research on the topic of balancing these two components via predictive processing (if you are familiar with Baye’s Theorem this would apply).

According to a recent article released by Ongaro and Kaptchuk, a major difference between the biomedical model (sensory input from tissue abnormality = pain) and the Bayesian model (under the umbrella of BioPsychoSocial model) is the following: “……Bayesian models suggest, instead, that perception is cognitively (mostly non-consciously) modulated, and might be best viewed as a process of prediction, based on an integration of sensory inputs, prior experience and contextual cues.”

What does this mean?

The body is receiving relevant sensory feedback constantly throughout the day (bottom-up) and the mind is consciously and subconsciously making predictions about our perceptions of reality (top-down), if for any reason these two are not in alignment then we have a predictive error.

These two aspects of pain perception are likely inseparable and necessary components of our daily functioning. We are consistently making predictions (hypotheses) about the world we find ourselves in and these predictions are based on prior experiences and contextual cues. I’d take the authors’ argument a step further and include the Reinforcement Theory of Learning which states we learn in our environment via exploration and exploitation based on a risk vs benefit analyses. These explorations and exploitations (prior experiences) help us update our predictions and also likely conditions learned behavioral responses (how we deal with pain when we perceive it). Our responses are influenced by anxiety, catastrophizing, depression, etc.

The tricky part about all of this, our sensory input (seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, etc) can be quite flawed and we may perceive things that simply aren’t there. An easy way to explain this would be illusions. One I like to discuss is when we thought we saw a face on Mars, and began making all sorts of predictions of what that face meant, how it got there, is there other life, etc. Then as our equipment for viewing Mars’s surface improved, we realized it was a rock face, and our hypotheses were wrong. We updated our beliefs about our reality as it relates to Mars. Another way to think about this is well explained by Lori Mosely in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwd-wLdIHjs). He discusses a prior experience where a person was walking through a tall grassy area and was bitten by a snake in the calf area. This experience was unpleasant and resulted in a reactionary response of jumping back and grabbing their leg. The experience was novel and threatening coupled with sensory feedback of tissue damage (nociception), which led to the perception pain (note: pain perception is not an absolute in this case). Fast forward 10 years later and the person is walking in a tall grassy area again and something brushes past their leg in the same region and they leap into the air, screaming and grabbing their leg. The person then looks down and notices it simply was a twig. Albeit a very real experience strongly linked to a prior experience and an appropriate behavioral response based on inappropriate perception (sensory input). The likely predictive hypothesis was a snake was biting the area again and the person was in danger but the sensory feedback was inappropriate for such a behavioral response. After the behavioral response, examining the leg and the grassy area with the twig allowed an update of predictions and a realization the person was in no danger.

I’ve said all this to say this, this process is COMPLEX and we are continuing to learn new things regularly. In my opinion, at this time Bayesian predictive processing is likely our best understanding of the topic but it too has faults.

On to the question of the tight spot giving you pain in your back. This likely has to do with a predictive error. There is a quote from the prior paper I was discussing:

“The idea that what we perceive is not the world as it is but our own best hypothesis of it equally applies to the body and subjective bodily states such as medical symptoms. We do not necessarily feel pain – this framework suggests – because we ‘sense’ it directly from the peripheral body. To put it emphatically, we feel pain because we predict that we are in pain, based on an integration of sensory inputs, prior experience, and contextual cues.”

Pain is not out of your control completely. The primary purpose of pain is attentional focus to ensure survival. The tricky part is when we have predictive error (sore spot) that draws our attentional focus in an unnecessary manner then we can use all sorts of distractionary techniques to tone down the noise. Example, massage ball in that specific spot. The downfall of this process is you’ve now conditioned yourself unnecessarily to being aware of the sore spot and the behavioral response of using a massage ball for “relief”. The belief (I have a sore spot and am focused on it) becomes coupled with the behavior (I need a massage ball for relief). This perpetuates the cycle. The massage ball provides relief because it alters your perception to the tissue you are perceiving sore but just because an area doesn’t feel as you are predicting it to feel doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with that tissue that necessitates fixing or a massage ball. Does that make sense?

To your last point, theatrical placebo is a POWERFUL thing. If a provider has therapeutic alliance (strong trust and a team based relationship) with the patient, then almost anything can be utilized as a means to provide perceived “healing” and thus leaving the patient feeling as though their goal of relief has been accomplished. These things are unnecessary because in essence, as it relates to pain, we as clinicians are placebos and the ethical question is how much are we going to maximize our placebo like effects. The push is to condition patients to take care of themselves by guiding their path to their goals and minimizing any unnecessary conditioning to clinicians or interventions. This means we need to pay close attention to our narratives we are providing patients (example the experiencing of sore spots) and interventions. These waters can get even more muddy if we begin attempting to define abnormalities necessitating treatment. Happy to discuss more. Again, my apologies for the lengthy response.

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Hello Ray,

Austin shared this thread on Facebook which I find very interesting.

After reading your response and imagining myself in the position of Nantule, I still have a question unanswered.

I understand that by using a massage ball Nantule may be creating a vicious cycle, on which, the tight spot continues to sore from time to time and he things he needs to use the massage ball to relief it.

The question that I would have on Nantule position will be, “if using the massage ball is creating or motivating this vicious cycle, then how should I proceed? should I just try to ignore my tight spot? or should I change technique from time to time to trick my brain into not relating a specific solution or placebo to the tight spot issue?”

I think that question still remains, about how to proceed or treat these situations.

I hope Im understanding this right and not trolling the thread.

Great question. This is a matter of perception and somatic awareness. We can alter perception in almost any imaginable way - shameless plug, a blog should be coming out soon that hits on this topic. If we set the expectation and belief that training could also easily alter the perception of the area and get buy-in then it will likely solidly change and replace the prior conditioned belief and behavior. It would be plausible to attempt to continue training without hypervigilance to the area. Once training has begun then odds are attentional focus will shift to goal direction of completing lifts in training. This would hopefully break the conditioned response and cycle.

Thanks very much for your detailed and thorough response. It has certainly clarified many things.

I was typing out my follow-up when I noted kvindas beat me to it with the exact same question.

Given that these passive modalities create this negative feedback loop, am I right in understanding your answer is that our best bet is to almost rehab the brain vs rehabing the body/tissue in perceiving the lifting as what will cause pain relief for most of these issues out there vs being the cause of these issues. If it is really a mindset change, what if it just doesn’t work? What if the only way my subconscious will let me feel pain relief is to perform one of these passive modalities regardless of what my conscious brain does or wants? How do I know when a pain is a matter of my perception vs actual tissue trauma that would need medical attention?

Thanks,
Adam

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I’d argue we are rehabbing both. This shouldn’t be thought of from a dualistic approach. This isn’t a mind problem or body problem, but this is a person issue (person composed of mind and body). The approach should be to reduce hypervigilence to the sore spot, which can be accomplished via reassurance there is a strong likelihood there is no cause for concern. All pain is an experience which means it is a matter of perception. Attempting to reduce the topic down to when is pain “real” vs “fake” as it relates to tissue damage would be a highly flawed premise. We can have perception of pain with no distinguishable tissue damage and we can have pain with “little to extreme” tissue damage. Knowing when pain does or doesn’t matter is a tricky question to answer because all pain is real to the person. This is where I’d argue for a clinician examination if the pain is bothersome to the point of not accomplishing daily tasks, loss of function, etc. Then what matters is the clinician’s ability to discern a problem from a non-problem which arguable lies in the prognosis of the situation (how does this particular issue or diagnosis effect the patient long term, if at all). Admittedly, in the neuromusculoskeletal world (where this discussion currently resides based on sore spots) we have more and more examples of things that aren’t actually issues necessitating anything more than reassurance of the patient things will improve and to remain active. In other words, we have more evidence on things that are not problems vs problems. Unfortunately the MSK field has done a great job at creating issues we don’t have solid evidence to say exists and this perpetuates false narratives to patients eliciting the idea something is wrong needing fixing and now we are back at conditioning people unnecessarily to false beliefs and implements like a massage ball.

Thanks again for your time. I will apply this logic and understanding to me current and future pain experiences in an attempt to reduce this hypervigilence and continue lifting.

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As a clinician, I find all of this information we are gathering about pain science and perception seems to be boiling down to a nihilism in regards to what can be done quite frustrating. I work as a PTA in an outpatient setting and it is my job to help guide people out of pain and improve their function toward goals set by other PT’s. All of these studies basically are saying everything we thought to be helpful for relieving pain is bullshit and mind tricks. I don’t push passive modalities, but usually rely on biomechanics, posture, and form control.

What type of interventions are you performing in the clinical setting? I find myself taking about these concepts more doing any therex or neuro re-ed, I cannot bill for that.

And no I cannot simply just get everyone to barbell train.

Aesg81, thanks for the comments and your frustration is understandable. I’d disagree regarding current pain science being a nihilist approach. We aren’t saying nothing matters but instead are saying we’ve likely been hyper-focused on less relevant stuff. The BPS model does still involve biology as a component. A more productive and positive way to view the current research is from the frame, here are important variables to focus on: the person, their beliefs, past experiences, and learned responses. The petition we are rallying for isn’t - “Don’t help others”, but rather here is how we should be helping.

“All of these studies basically are saying everything we thought to be helpful for relieving pain is bullshit and mind tricks.” - Not quite and this would be a reductionist approach. What the research is saying is the stuff (passive modalities) we have been doing are likely helping for none of the reasons we previously thought and there are better treatment options to condition people to based on our narratives and current understanding of the research. When it comes to the topic of pain, I stand firmly in the camp we are all placebos with the potential to be a nocebo. The ethical question becomes how much are we going to maximize the placebo effect without conditioning people unnecessarily to ourselves and interventions. When we address the false narratives for many passive modalities, then these modalities go away because they’ve lost efficacy. We will still need to do exactly what you are describing, guiding the path to patient goals but we can do that with education. Here’s how I look at this, we educate and address beliefs and their validity. We then assess what has been the prior learned response to pain, if need be we reframe and supply new behaviors for self-care and management. My bias is exercise for a lot of well supported reasons: increases self-efficacy, internal locus of control, important physiological adaptions for QOL and mitigating chronic diseases. There is also something empowering for someone with cLBP who thought they’d never be able to be active with decreased pain while improving function and then they deadlift their bodyweight from the ground. With all that said, if the person’s goals aren’t related to resistance training, that doesn’t mean we force it on them (albeit I’lll do my damndest to educate to convert them). Education is our cornerstone for treatment, exercise is just icing on the cake. Our treatment plans are specific to patient goals and not our goals. Educating while billing for ther ex is a solid approach for an insurance based model. Hopefully in the future this will be a billable CPT code for all providers.

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