I’ve been hearing a lot about Stan Efferding’s “Vertical Diet”, and how he really pushes for a high amount of salt/sodium intake for athletes. I don’t know the specifics (I’m not going to pay $100+ for a book on eating advice), but I think I remember hearing something along the lines of 8g/day of sodium is what he does/recommends.
I’m curious to hear some input regarding these recommendations since, as far as I know, pushing sodium intake this high isn’t generally viewed as a good thing.
I think that is an overstatement and one that is potentially dangerous.
At present, the best evidence from the 2015-2020 US Dietary Guidelines review on this topic suggests a strong association of sodium intake with blood pressure and cardiovascular disease events in hypertensive individuals, the elderly, and those who consume > 6 grams per day of sodium. At present, there is no association of sodium with cardiovascular events or clinical problems at 3 - 6 grams per day for non hypertensives. There is also a paradoxically higher rate of cardiovascular events at intakes of less than 3 grams per day.
The current average intake is ~3.4g per day.
8g per day would firmly place a person into a range where clinical events increase with a direct mechanism is present. I wouldn’t do that.
Thanks for your response, Dr. Feigenbaum. My initial reaction to his recommendations was, “That sounds like a dangerous thing to recommend.”
I’ve been working in the food industry for a long time, with the last 3 years being in a hospital setting feeding both patients and students/general public, and I’ve never heard anyone recommend this sort of thing. I did hear him mention something about sodium being “misunderstood”, but this seems a little crazy.
AFAIK Stan uses 8 grams for athletes that train hard for 7 days a week and it includes the sodium that’s already in foods and liquids. Especially for athletes that sweat a lot it would be beneficial. Not sure if that makes a huge difference, but it gives some context.
In general I loosely follow his diet and sleep advice and so far it works pretty well. I also increased my salt intake a bit, because “clean” eating used to mean that it was almost saltless for me. I don’t get anywhere near 8 grams though.
While I’d like to give Stan the benefit of the doubt about his recommendations being misunderstood, there are numerous errors about sodium intake in his eBook. I think if you’re going to sell a product to the masses and put your opinions out there within the product then you may expect disagreement or attention being cast upon you if things are wrong.
8g is a useless recommendation for the populations being referenced to without additional data such as duration of exercise, weight loss during training, climate, etc. It’s also unlikely that anyone meeting that criteria is reading his book.
Can you define his diet? I’ve read the eBook several times and can’t quite parse out what makes something the vertical diet without also including a lot of unnecessary restriction and goofy micronutrient practices.
The whole orange juice and cranberry juice thing that he recommends seems pretty ridiculous. Will orange juice really stimulate my liver and is cranberry juice really gonna help my thyroid function optimally? I’m not buying into any of that crap. Besides that it seems like he’s saying to focus on high quality, low fat animal protein, low fibre carbs and low gas producing veggies if trying to put on weight. That makes sense as its pretty difficult to eat above maintenance calories consistently if you feel bloated.
My ignorance is on full display, but I find that quite fascinating. If I understand the conversions correctly (are these actually reliable?), you’d need to consume 1200 mg of sodium to = 3 grams of salt. As someone that consumes < 300 mg of sodium/day, this is eye-opening. I’ve heard the benefits of salt intake as it relates to training, but sorta just assumed lower (this is relative; never thought NO salt was good) salt intake was better.
If someone primarily eats whole foods, do you actively suggest adding salt to those meals? Or is it kind of just assumed that people add salt to meals?
I totally agree that there should be better recommendations to scale a lot of the numbers that are thrown around in the eBook according to bodyweight, body composition, training regiment and many other factors that have a huge impact. Most of us are unlikely to be anywhere near the potential of giants like Brian Shaw or Hafthor Bjornson anyway.
How to define the diet? Hm, let’s see… It’s essentially a pretty simple diet, that’s why it works for me. I can easily do this 80% of the week. Food never had my biggest interrest in regards to training, even though I know how important it is for performance.
How I use the diet:
I use the horizontal foundation to get my micronutrients in with products like eggs, carrots, bananas, apples, oranges, bell peppers, spinach/endive other veggies and fresh fish.
For the “vertical” part (this is mainly used to regulate the total amount of calories) I follow the rice and beef protocol, now and than using sweet potatoes and chicken to add some variation. I also use the stock and broth a lot, I really like that. You can actually do a lot with the rice and beef alone if you are creative.
I don’t find the diet that restrictive to be honest and it’s easy to follow. I just use salt to flavor my food, but not going overboard with it.
It may not be the best diet out there in general, but the best diet is usually the diet that you stick to most of the time.
As I said, I try to follow the above about 80% of the time. On the other 20% I really like to go out to diner and have a few nice beers. I enjoy life.
Sorry for any miss spellings and such, English is not my major language.
The latter would be okay without the claims that red meat is better and certain carbs are “bad”. Overall, I think the things that make the Vertical Diet the “Vertical Diet” limit its utility.
Is this to do with a hypertension issue, or are you referring to some other mechanism?
I’m at the far other end of the scale, always 100to110/55o65 range, though it is sometimes quite a bit lower than that (particularly if it is hot). How’s this affect salt recommendations? It is hard to find info on the Web, as search results are swamped by hypertension related answers.
Sorry to bump an older thread but I have been looking into this a bit. The idea I seem to have gotten from his lectures is that is a pretty normal diet on its base (necessary calories to survive). The vertical part is intended solely for bodybuilders and competitive lifters trying to bulk. What I have gathered from it is the vertical (steak and rice) is the suggestion because it is easy to digest. So if you are on a diet like Brain Shaw you can’t fill your 1000 g carbs with high fiber foods easily and steak is pretty easy to digest. The idea about low carb is really his experience of eating something like 800 carbs a day. I would think if you are eating higher fiber beyond a 2-4 cal base things like Brussel sprouts, peas, beans, etc are going to cause problems if you are eating them in bulk. In my opinion there is probably 1% or less of the population who would even need to think about how can make 10,000 calories digestible and that is his aim. I think there is some sense to having a base to make up your minimum necessary calories to survive then avoiding things that are going to cause digestive problems if you are trying to hit 800 carbs a day, etc. I do think the vertical part applies to 1% or less of the population. The base doesn’t seem bad but it isn’t really much different from the bog standard advice. His advice on weight loss is essentially paleo and I don’t see much difference from Mark Sisson primal diet (100-150 g carbs) higher protein fat fills out the balance.
Just my view. I can’t comment on if it is a good idea to eat a pretty standard diet at the base and add meat rice to get several tons of calories. I haven’t done it and will never be 400 pounds and a top strongman. I do think his base diet isn’t much different than most would recommend. The vertical part isn’t going to apply many people. I think he has some points about if you are training watch your salt intake and <3 grams which is currently recommended may not be enough. I can’t comment much on if his statements on avoiding low iodine (the cranberry juice and spinach) is valid. Still it is important to think about electrolytes on hard training days. I don’t think any of this really applies to a LP beginner or even 90% of the people using a BBM template or something similar. You aren’t training twice a day 6 days a week. So while it is important to remember to salt food on training days and maybe have a pre and post workout with some salt in it, I wouldn’t listen to the high end stuff unless you are an elite athlete and train like one.
I can’t really say I see any positives for most people. I am sure people who eat enough for a family because they are 400 lbs and are top strongmen find some value in the vertical part. Still I think there are a couple.
Be wary of salt intake. He is right eating clean often eliminates salt down to very low levels. So if you train hard hitting 3 to 6 grams which seems reasonable from the research is a good idea.
What people miss that very lean red meat isn’t that much different in fat from a chicken breast and may be about the same as chicken thighs.
All of the stuff about easy to digest is really intended for the I need an ungodly amount of calories to maintain 400 lbs and be the world’s strong man.