McKenzie Method Discussion

Derek,

Did you read the Long 2004 article?

I’m not sure what would “sufficiently refute” the utility of the method for myself. Nothing that has been posted here has met that criteria though. I spent the first 2 years of my career searching for guidance in my clinical decision making. Eventually I decided that MDT was worth investigating further. I also continue to search, hence the reason I visit Barbell Medicine. I have also read all the articles on The Logic of Rehab.

This mechanical obstruction is determined by a clinical observation of obstructed movement. There is not a pathoanatomical obstruction included in the definition, only a clinical presentation. A clinical presentation associated with mechanical obstruction is based on the patient’s history and clinical examination findings. I again refer all to the reference list on the McKenzie Institute site to check the reliability and validity studies.

Maybe there is some influence related to clinical equipoise in the Long paper. The authors address the reasoning for having all treatment groups treated by the MDT clinician. Maybe the results of clinicians without clinical equipoise are affected because the clinicians are more trained in the techniques that they believe in and therefore perform them more effectively. For example the study you included involved 2 PTs and a chiropractor. I think most of us would agree that both of those professions typically involve more training with joint based interventions versus constant touch (whatever that is). Not to mention that the study had fake back pain and fake interventions. There was not a clinician that had a preference for constant touch. There was better improvement with joint based intervention over constant touch overall. My statistics knowledge is poor but I would not be surprised if those facts influence the statistics reported in that study.

With the evidence I have provided (there are hundreds of articles posted on the McKenzie Institute reference list) I do not understand the harm in my recommendations which were:
In this thread: “PTs have to have Continuing Education credits of some sort (many other professions do too), so I recommend courses A-D for anyone interested in learning more about MDT.”
In my original post in the intro thread: “I would recommend the textbooks written by Robin McKenzie for all young clinicians and students as personal reading material for great information on reliability of tests/measures, epidemiology, and natural history of musculoskeletal conditions.”

Your comment towards my recommendation in the intro forum was: “I would not recommend the textbooks of Robin McKenzie as the overall bolus of literature does not state that it is superior to any other method and my understanding of the reading is it has a propensity for a structuralist approach to explanation.”

As I have read the books, I do feel qualified to make the recommendation based on my further understanding of their content and the method. I understand you are working from a different background, however regarding the full scope of literature I do not believe it is responsible to dismiss something that has not been sufficiently explored. And one cannot justify a lack of understanding with hearsay.

Hi floydd,

Its pretty clear you are sold on the MDT system. It appears no amount of evidence will sway you from promoting the brand, website, courses, etc. You’ve made it clear your understanding of evidence appraisal has room for improvement. In light of this, I encourage you not to tout the “hundreds of articles posted on the McKenzie Institute reference list.” Just because something has been published and put on a website doesn’t mean it is supportive, credible or relevant.

Having taken the MDT courses, watched/listened to instructor’s clinical reasoning and practice patterns, having a descent understanding of the MDT body of evidence and what I consider the highest level, most credible research articles, I’ve not seen a reason to promote the system as you do. I see some areas where the concepts of directional preference and centralization fit in for people with lumbar related conditions. Outside of this (Part A), I’ve not seen a convincing body of evidence to support Parts B-D. I’d also like to add, the TBC classification (to which I don’t subscribe to) has a directional preference category built in. I think that does support the benefit of a directional preference. Audrey’s Long work does as well.

So in light of that here are what I consider the most relevant and telling research articles for the MDT system. To me this doesn’t support the system as strongly as you do. Again, as a platform to initiate a quality subjective and objective physical examination and guide a reasoned intervention for lumbar related conditions, sure. Compared to anything else with a solid clinical reasoning practice and positive therapeutic alliance, I’m not so sure.

Systematic Reviews
https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2018.7562
https://insights.ovid.com/crossref?an=00007632-200604200-00022https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/9/594

RCT’s of decent quality

https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2016.6379

You are likely correct about my current feelings towards MDT. However the objective of this thread was not for my feelings to be changed. Derek asked me to provide evidence for my recommendations in the introduction forum. The “hundreds of articles posted on the MII reference list” wasn’t to show how many supportive studies are there, but just that the organization has not ignored or shied away from research.

I do appreciate your contributions to the thread. I respect your understanding of the method as well as your decision not to significantly utilize it in your clinical practice.

In the end this whole thread is likely pointless as it seems I may have posted it in the wrong section and I doubt many people have taken the time to read all of our long posts. However, I’m kind of having fun with it and it is helping me evaluate literature and MDT so I will continue with thoughts on the articles posted on this forum to refute the method.

Lam 2018- Effectiveness of the McKenzie Method of Mechanical Diagnosis and Therapy for Treating Low Back Pain: Literature Review With Meta-analysis - PubMed
12 randomised controlled trials were analysed. For acute back pain there was no significant difference between MDT and other interventions. For chronic back pain there was moderate to high evidence that MDT is superior to other interventions regarding both pain and disability.

Machado 2006- The McKenzie method for low back pain: a systematic review of the literature with a meta-analysis approach - PubMed
Systematic review that included 11 trials and concluded that there is some evidence that the McKenzie method is more effective than passive therapies for acute back pain, but the size of treatment effect is unlikely to be clinically worthwhile. There is limited evidence for the McKenzie method in chronic back pain and overall effectiveness is not established. However the authors largely failed to perform the meta-analysis they intended, and many studies were included in which treatment was not classification based. (Not MDT then, even the Lam 2018 article identifies the weaknesses of this paper)

https://insights.ovid.com/crossref?a…ntent/52/9/594
I can’t access the abstract or full text for this one.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.co…1741-7015-8-10
Comparison of trained GP care (advice, reassurance, and paracetamol) with trained GP care plus McKenzie care delivered by therapists with credentialed qualification over 3 weeks. There were significant differences favouring the McKenzie group in pain over the first few weeks, though these differences were clinically small, but there were no significant differences in perceived effect, function or persistent symptoms. Patients in the McKenzie group sought significantly less additional care.

https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2016.6379
In a LBP population with the classification of Derangement, this RCT primarily compared MDT to motor control exercises for the restoration of muscle recruitment. Muscle thickness recovered equally in both groups. The only significant difference in any secondary outcome was with Global Perceived Improvement, which favored the McKenzie group. Does muscle recruitment or TA thickness matter? I personally don’t think so.

260 patients with chronic back pain followed up at 2 and 8 months after 8 week treatment period. With intention to treat analysis both groups improved modestly, McKenzie group favoured at 2 months. Outcomes were better and differences favoring McKenzie group were more significant in those who actually completed treatment.

All these studies provided against MDT show that MDT is at least as effective as anything else. I have provided studies showing MDT to be superior to other methods. So is there literature showing something is better than MDT?
I have also been wondering if anyone had thoughts on the pages I posted from the McKenzie textbooks?
​​​​​​​

Hi floydd,

“So is there literature showing something is better than MDT?”

This question could also be asked as:

So is there literature showing something is better than TBC? Is there literature showing something is better than CFT? Is there literature showing something is better than MSI?

None of these “systems/models/products” seem to outperform one another. Few have actually been compared is a reasonable fashion. If you go to enough conferences you seen groups putting on demonstrations of how they would handle a patient case. I’ve watched a MDT vs Maitland vs Mulligan, TBC vs MDT vs MSI at different conferences for real patients. As much as they want to show their superiority or differences, they are very similar with different vocabulary and narratives. I seen numerous patient examples with MDT. its because of this, I don’t promote the MDT system. I take from the MDT system what the evidence supports and nothing else. It would cost someone a lot of money and time to go through the entire system. I don’t see the point if the evidence doesn’t support it.

"I have also been wondering if anyone had thoughts on the pages I posted from the McKenzie textbooks?"

I think its great information. That information has been around for a long time. I’d hope it’s not new information for people.

“So is there literature showing something is better than MDT?”

Appears to be no currently.

It would cost someone a lot of money and time to go through the entire system. I don’t see the point if the evidence doesn’t support it.

It costs $2,680 to take courses all 4 courses A-D ($650-$690 per course) which many employers will pay. Most of us pay 60-100K for our DPT. The cost is minimal compared to what has already been invested. Especially when you consider that CE credits are required so you will have to spend money on something.

I think its great information. That information has been around for a long time. I’d hope it’s not new information for people.

Agreed. I thought it might help people understand that MDT is not a purely structuralist method. There is other good information about the complexities of pain and the natural history included in his books as well.

I don’t think this thread is pointless at all and quite the contrary, think it is a necessary discussion that does not happen often enough. I still do not see sufficient evidence to support MDT over any other system and where I tend to take issue is in a belief of a particular system having superiority over another. I would caution anyone to go full bore into any system, but rather explore different systems and what they may have to offer (honestly, most of the time to Matt’s point it is amazing how similar they are).

For the Lam article, you left off the second part of the sentence “For chronic back pain there was moderate to high evidence that MDT is superior to other interventions regarding both pain and disability however, this depends on the type of intervention being compared to MDT

This is the point being made repeatedly here, MDT does work as a system, and “a” system works better than “no” system. But no one system is better than another. I would highly recommend this article as it gets into how beliefs can effect outcomes. This is true for both clinicians and patients and part of why no one system is better, it is more complicated than that.

​​​​​​The Control Group Is Out Of Control | Slate Star Codex

“I don’t think this thread is pointless at all and quite the contrary, think it is a necessary discussion that does not happen often enough.”
Glad to hear. Just felt like we weren’t getting anywhere with each other and only the 3 of us have posted. Hope others are getting good things out of this.

“however, this depends on the type of intervention being compared to MDT”
“For patients with chronic LBP, MDT provided greater improvements in pain and disability compared to other interventions and exercise alone, but had similar outcomes compared to the combination of manual therapy and exercise.” (So just manual therapy + exercise was equivalent. What I like about MDT compared to manual therapy + exercise is that MDT encourages patient self-treatment with specific exercises from day 1 versus dependency on the clinician for the performance of manual therapy. So if they are equal in effectiveness, IMO a slight edge could be provided to MDT based on the psychosocial and economic effects of self treatment.)

“This is the point being made repeatedly here, MDT does work as a system, and “a” system works better than “no” system. But no one system is better than another. I would highly recommend this article as it gets into how beliefs can effect outcomes. This is true for both clinicians and patients and part of why no one system is better, it is more complicated than that.”
This is. Other systems may work as well. I chose to delve into MDT more than others after a quick appraisal of each system. MDT has worked for me. I have noticed improvements in my assessment and treatment of patients and hope this will continue to grow with further training in MDT and other techniques. My primary reason for recommending the McKenzie textbook and MDT was to encourage young clinicians to find a system (even if it’s their own system) that works for them to assess and diagnose/classify patients. Do not take intervention CE courses until you understand which patients need what intervention and why. Do not dry needle and K-tape everyone that has pain in their upper trap region because you just took that CE class.

​​​​​​https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/2…ut-of-control/
Working my way through this article. Thanks for posting.

I’ve been looking for this and have just found it again. Here is a list of supportive studies per the McKenzie Institute for anyone to explore if they would like. These are likely better than the ones I have provided and I honestly have not completed vetting them all myself. Take it for what it is worth to you.

Not sure if my attachment uploaded correctly. If not you can find the same list in the tabs on the left hand side of the page here Reference List | The McKenzie Institute International®

Ignoring literature endorsed by one of the largest and most prominent organizations involved in low back and musculoskeletal management around the world is not a full review of the literature.

As it appears that this thread has lost its way I would like to summarize my thoughts. This thread was started to share research related the McKenzie Method of Mechanical Diagnosis and Therapy. It was started per Derek’s encouragement on the introduction forum in regards to my recommendation that others read the textbooks by Robin McKenzie. Since then I have also recommended the MDT courses for anyone interested in MDT. In my opinion the Barbell Medicine philosophy is very compatible with MDT and I look forward learning more about both philosophies, but likely as a more passive observer. Here are resources that anyone interested in MDT can pursue.

This is the McKenzie USA website which has information regarding the method, links to the research, and free webinars for those interested.

https://www.optp.com/Robin-McKenzie-Mechanical-Diagnosis-Therapy-Text-Set?cat_id=202
These are the textbooks I was referring to.