Programming the Squat with Big Form Problems

Training Q&A [Moderated]
1

Hi there, I’m a 63 y.o. male, been doing SS for a couple of years, slow progress but happy with it except for squats, which are the bane of my existence. Am looking into possibly starting with BBM group programming next month (and then I can post form-checks and ask you about technique) but in the meantime would really appreciate your opinion on programming the squat when there are what I feel are pretty big form problems.

I have a good-morning squat plus kyphosis, and these two combine so that, when I am in the hole, having good-morning squatted my way into a back angle that I feel is way too horizontal, the bar will often whump! forward almost onto my neck. This happens every set, except maybe the lightest. It is tolerable at lighter weights but at weights that are heavier (for me) feels pretty awful. Sometimes I actually do fall forward onto the pins due to lack of balance (on heavier work sets). It can be pretty stressful, on a 5RM work set, waiting for that possible whump to the neck, being off balance, having then to grind up doing a low bar squat with the bar in high-bar position, on my toes and possibly falling forward. I deal with this on every “heavy” set, and, frankly, it is taking a toll.

(I have been spectacularly non-responsive to cues, despite articles, videos, and some excellent but too-infrequent in-person coaching, so now squat form is my holy grail.)

As a consequence of all this, I have cycled between two programming points of view with the squat: (1) “Go up in weight no matter what; even if you have lousy form at your 5RM weight your form will be good at lesser weights” (which is unfortunately not the case with me). This was the point of view of my excellent SS coach, who unfortunately I could only see for an initial in-person session and a few form checks that were so few and sporadic that he never had the opportunity to really help me out of this. And the other point of view is (2) “This form problem is of sufficient magnitude that the intelligent thing is to put the ego on hold, forget weight for now, work on that form at a weight where you can focus on the corrective cues, until you’re at least somewhat balanced and confident.”

As I mentioned, a problem with alternative (1) is that my form is bad at all weights, anyway. Plus I feel at around 225 it all falls apart. And a huge problem is that I simply cannot focus on corrective cues like “proud chest” when I’m in the hole at 5RM; maybe I’m weak-minded but in that situation it becomes all about survival, and my mind clings to cues like “hips” or whatever has gotten me out of the hole in the past. Sorry, on heavy sets I can lead my mind to that water, but I just can’t make it drink.

A problem with (2) is, well, for example - although I’m certainly taking this out of context, and it might or might not apply to me, anyway - in one of your Q&A videos you warn not to be “that guy”, the one who sticks at a weight until his form is perfect. I don’t want to be “that guy”; and the mantra over at SS often seems to be just go up in weight, sort your form problems out as you’re doing that. (Again, that might be an unfair generalization.) But I don’t want to be futilely trying to advance in weight with zero squat confidence either.

Basically, right now I’m just guessing, any opinions re programming the squat given my situation would be great. Thanks a ton for your time (kind of a long post).

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Hi there and welcome to the forum.

I guess my first questions here would be: Why do you train? Is there a particular reason you MUST do a low bar squat, aside from the typical reasons made up by SS?

We can often improve the “good morning” pattern with cueing and additional targeted training to increase quad strength, but it seems to me that you’re likely to still have issues at top-end weights if this issue should re-emerge in the setting of an exaggerated kyphosis. In this case, I wonder if – depending on your goals – you could simply train the high bar squat or a SSB squat as your primary squatting movements, and get just as much benefit out of it from a strength, hypertrophy, and health standpoint without the constant annoyances you’re dealing with currently.

What do you think?

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Thanks for the very interesting reply. Very surprising to me in some ways, it’s really stretching my mind.

Basically I started training in this way just a couple years ago when I found out that there was something called strength training and that the few times in my life that I had tried squats in order to “strengthen my legs” I had been doing half-squats, or maybe sixteenth-squats, or 9/132nd squats. Once I learned there was such a thing as “real squats” and something called a deadlift, I said I want to try those, and that led right to SS where I learned that real squats are low-bar squats done to just below parallel.

That’s why I started training; but as to why I train now, it’s actually become complicated (and I appreciate your asking, as it’s forcing me to really think about motives). I have totally bought into the importance of strength training for health and well-being, and doubly into its importance for older people. (I thank SS, the Barbell Prescription, and all you folks at BBM for that life-changing concept.) It has also occurred to me along the way that strength for health and happiness need not necessarily require a journey into intermediate and advanced and beyond, and may not require giving up a lot of cardio and other activities so you can keep single-mindedly trying to add lbs. to your squat all the time. (I suspect that BBM is failry hospitable to that kind of approach, in fact to a wide range of approaches.)

The problem is, I have also gotten all caught up in goals, which I like, although there are downsides to that. Having no intention of competing (ha! - I laugh because i consider myself a very slow-responder to weight training, and the very idea is kind of funny) I have still become attached to going up in weight, hard as it has been. For example, I have been very attached to hitting 405 on the deadlift (not much to you but a lot to me, the closest I came was 395 for a couple of singles before I got the flu), and I feel that if I ever hit that I’ll be king. Similarly, I’ve become attached to doing traditional full squats, horrible as they feel (though I am ever hopeful for the longed-for form breakthrough), and though 315 seems totally out of reach right now (230 seems out of reach now, I’ve never gone much over 225) if I ever could do that I would be ecstatic.

So having drunk all six original flavors of Kool-Aid over at SS, I was shocked that you mentioned the high-bar squat, which now my brain considers to be not a “real” squat, and one which might limit what I can put on the bar. I have occasionally wondered about doing it as a way to develop my quads, having suspected that my problems in the hole might be either from having weak quads, or thinking that I have weak quads and not being able to trust them, but I only thought of that as a possible assistance exercise for the low-bar squat. So you’ve really got me thinking. I don’t know if my newly developed strength-ego would accept - in the long run - doing only high bar squats if I could put more plates on with the low-bar movement, but I have a lot of time and am in no rush. So wow, that’s a possibility. As for the SSB, I have become attached to being a new squat-snob and now look down on that hex-bar thing for the deadlift and anything that’s not just a plain barbell - but as I say, now you’ve got me thinking.

So I’d say are my goals are still to hit some numbers - eventually - but with no rush, and I’m very willing to change course and delay that gratification for a more well-rounded, maybe more intelligently paced program - with the added concept that I am very tired of doing minimal cardio and have to work some more of that in there too.

I hope I’ve been clear, thanks again for asking. BBM group programming seems like a good option (although I haven’t done the Bridge) and I’m thinking very seriously about it.

Many thanks, more thoughts always welcome!

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I see - that’s essentially what I expected. There is no such thing as a “real” squat or a “fake” squat. There are just different movements that impart different stimuli and thus generate different adaptations, with inherent trade-offs between them to be considered when selecting among them in the context of an individual’s abilities and goals.

It is normal to enjoy seeing the numbers go up. However, it is also important to understand that training is a long-term process, and we would like for you to be training productively for the rest of your life. In this light, while it is fine to have arbitrary “number” goals like 315 and 405, it is also not to attach specific timelines / deadlines to those goals, or to feel like they must be attained as quickly as possible, in order to avoid “wasting time”. These things lead people to make stupid decisions in their training, often unnecessarily increasing injury risk among other things.

A high bar squat is absolutely a “real” squat. A number of people have squatted well over 800 lbs with a high bar position, to well below parallel, without ever training a low bar squat in their life. For the record, this is several hundred pounds more than essentially anyone in the SS organization has ever squatted - or will ever squat, for that matter.

Regardless of your quad strength (which pretty much everyone can benefit from increasing with respect to squatting), I actually don’t know for sure whether it will inherently limit your performance more than a low bar squat, if your exaggerated kyphosis inherently prevents you from being able to achieve a stable bar position. I suspect we may be able to figure this out with a bit more confidence in the group programming form checks, but if it has led to this much ongoing frustration, I would at least consider the option of ditching the low bar squat and aiming to get as strong as you can on the high bar or SSB where the bar position is eliminated as a variable during the lift, since it should sit in a stable position throughout, allowing you to focus on other more important things.

This sounds wise.

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Thanks a ton for the detailed thoughts. My mind is reeling!