Running in circles...

[Paramveer753]

Hey Doc, you have probably been bombarded with Skinny Fat inquiry but…

Long story short.
A year and a half ago, I tried Keto to reduce the body fat because the fitness gurus were saying "if your at 20 to 25 body fat lose it) and then some are saying " skinny fat people are insulin resistance) then (keto and intermittent fasting corrects insulin resistance and ups test, GH). Some say increase muscle mass first, skinny fat shouldn’t worry about isolation bodybuilding study, do power lifting. Then I hear “powerlifting doesn’t fix skinny fat”

If I do SS novice progression, I have to eat a lot of food (3000+) and my lifts currently are not impressive, considering I did stronglifts during last summer (3 months) 2017 and then Ogus 753 (hypertrophy)(smolov, 5/3/1 based program to have a brake from 5x5, 3x5 and to cut some fat), SS LP (2-3 months) (because I discovered SS after SL)
If I add conditioning, or HIIT then it messes with my recovery.
3-1-18
185 Squat
145 Bench
105 OHP
195 Deadlift
6’4 200 Lbs, ~20 to 25%, 23 year old male

If I eat 3000+ (eating like Alan Thrall) I get fat on top of my skinny fat body, if I cut calories and eat at “moderate” bulking calories, then my recovery is impaired and I stall.

I have been stuck at the same body composition for my entire training career (3 years) and have been doing a lot of mental masturbation with all the info over the web, (IF, keto, IIFYM,)
It is very frustrating that I concentrate so much of my energy to training and nutrition and I have nothing to show for it.

When I am doing a power lifting program, my schedule will allow me to train first thing in the morning, and during the day I feel sluggish, slow, and loss of mental clarity, especially when my calories are high.

I have accepted the fact that I need to do SS (and your programming once to that level) to get my numbers to almost twice of where I am currently at to build muscle and then cut to lose the cursed I mean… skinny fat look.

I took 2 home sleep study and my doc told me to see an ENT to get a nasal nasal endoscopy done (sleep study failed because the machine thought the nasal tube was disconnected)
I try to keep my stress level as reasonable as possible while doing meditation, tai chi (it may sound like bogus but it helps me with my anger problem) and 7-8 hours of sleep everyday.

Training quality is not a problem, treat every rep and every set seriously and I train as if I am training for a meet.

How can I reduce the amount of fat that I get while in the novice progression, or minimize the fat gain during the novice progression?
Any advice doc? I have talked to a few people that are way beyond my level in terms of fitness and they all say I doing all the right things.
My goal is to have a strong body while being lean, not skinny fat
Thanks doc have a great day.

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@Paramveer753

Long story short.
A year and a half ago, I tried Keto to reduce the body fat because the fitness gurus were saying "if your at 20 to 25 body fat lose it) and then some are saying " skinny fat people are insulin resistance) then (keto and intermittent fasting corrects insulin resistance and ups test, GH). Some say increase muscle mass first, skinny fat shouldn’t worry about isolation bodybuilding study, do power lifting. Then I hear “powerlifting doesn’t fix skinny fat”

This is all bro science. Do not give it any credence.

@Paramveer753

If I do SS novice progression, I have to eat a lot of food (3000+)

No you don’t.

@Paramveer753

and my lifts currently are not impressive, considering I did stronglifts during last summer (3 months) 2017 and then Ogus 753 (hypertrophy)(smolov, 5/3/1 based program to have a brake from 5x5, 3x5 and to cut some fat), SS LP (2-3 months) (because I discovered SS after SL)
If I add conditioning, or HIIT then it messes with my recovery.
3-1-18
185 Squat
145 Bench
105 OHP
195 Deadlift
6’4 200 Lbs, ~20 to 25%, 23 year old male

This does not seem like you’ve been training the way you reported.

@Paramveer753

If I eat 3000+ (eating like Alan Thrall) I get fat on top of my skinny fat body, if I cut calories and eat at “moderate” bulking calories, then my recovery is impaired and I stall.

There is probably more to the story here when you’re bulking, e.g. your intake is much higher than 3000. If your calories are lower and you’re losing weight- you’re not bulking any more. It sounds to me like you have not been training or eating consistently for any period of time and are wondering why your results are not very good.

​​​​​​​[quote=“Paramveer753, post:1, topic:1073, username:Paramveer753”]
When I am doing a power lifting program, my schedule will allow me to train first thing in the morning, and during the day I feel sluggish, slow, and loss of mental clarity, especially when my calories are high.
[/quote]

Eh, you probably have just been nocebo’d by people you read on the Internet (Martin B or Mark Bell), as this is 100% not food related.​​​​​​​

​​​​​​​[quote=“Paramveer753, post:1, topic:1073, username:Paramveer753”]
I have accepted the fact that I need to do SS (and your programming once to that level) to get my numbers to almost twice of where I am currently at to build muscle and then cut to lose the cursed I mean… skinny fat look.

​​​​​​​
[/quote]

You don’t have to do SS unless you’re a novice.

​​​​​​​[quote=“Paramveer753, post:1, topic:1073, username:Paramveer753”]
I took 2 home sleep study and my doc told me to see an ENT to get a nasal nasal endoscopy done (sleep study failed because the machine thought the nasal tube was disconnected)
I try to keep my stress level as reasonable as possible while doing meditation, tai chi (it may sound like bogus but it helps me with my anger problem) and 7-8 hours of sleep everyday.
​​​​​​​
[/quote]

This is unrelated.

​​​​​​​[quote=“Paramveer753, post:1, topic:1073, username:Paramveer753”]
Training quality is not a problem, treat every rep and every set seriously and I train as if I am training for a meet.
​​​​​​​
[/quote]

I disagree. You are squatting 185 after 3 years of program hopping and searching for the perfect diet. You are not training, yet. I’m not trying to be harsh- but at 23 yo 200lb male squatting 185 after 3 years is very unusual.

I would have you do SS as written for 6-10 weeks, then do the Bridge, then do one of our templates.

You should see a coach to get your form ironed out.

You should eat a calorie maintenance without any special tricks or tactics.

[cknepfler]

Piggyback on some conversation here, is all talk about different body types: Endomorph, Ectomorph, also bro science? It seems pretty evident to me that some people have drastically different metabolisms right? Whether or not that really has anything to do with insulin sensitivity and the like I don’t know. Can you speak to some of this dialogue and about what is and what isn’t scientifically backed?

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@cknepfler

Piggyback on some conversation here, is all talk about different body types: Endomorph, Ectomorph, also bro science? It seems pretty evident to me that some people have drastically different metabolisms right? Whether or not that really has anything to do with insulin sensitivity and the like I don’t know. Can you speak to some of this dialogue and about what is and what isn’t scientifically backed?

Bro science in what regard? Their metabolisms are not different, no, but the response to training is known to be different amongst a population. It has nothing to do with insulin sensitivity.

I think that there are too many things to address here and I request a better question.

[Paramveer753]

@Jordan_Feigenbaum

This is all bro science. Do not give it any credence.

No you don’t.

This does not seem like you’ve been training the way you reported.

There is probably more to the story here when you’re bulking, e.g. your intake is much higher than 3000. If your calories are lower and you’re losing weight- you’re not bulking any more. It sounds to me like you have not been training or eating consistently for any period of time and are wondering why your results are not very good.

Eh, you probably have just been nocebo’d by people you read on the Internet (Martin B or Mark Bell), as this is 100% not food related.​​​​​​​

​​​​​​​

You don’t have to do SS unless you’re a novice.

​​​​​​​

This is unrelated.

​​​​​​​

I disagree. You are squatting 185 after 3 years of program hopping and searching for the perfect diet. You are not training, yet. I’m not trying to be harsh- but at 23 yo 200lb male squatting 185 after 3 years is very unusual.

I would have you do SS as written for 6-10 weeks, then do the Bridge, then do one of our templates.

You should see a coach to get your form ironed out.

You should eat a calorie maintenance without any special tricks or tactics.

First things first, I was a bit triggered about my lack of results over the years so I was feeling like a victim and special snowflake when I posted.

First two years of being in the gym I was horsing around with program hopping, with my bench at 185 for one, high bar at 185 for one, and a monstrous 300lbs sumo squat (all low back and tight belt lol, not proud of that) Middle of second year I hurt my back doing sumo while being ignorant of my low back (glad I was pulling 225, I was literally doing a form check when I hurt my back, so it’s all on camera if you want to see it, show people what not to do lol). Third year is horsing around as well, but… I was doing a lot of mobility/flexibly work and spent 3 months doing front squats and hurting my back (hey its less stressful on low back right?). After 3 months, Barbell Jesus (Alan Thrall lol) posted a video about Low bar. Spend a few months learning the form of that with trial and error hurting my back. After not having any issues with my back is when I bought weightlifting shoes and started Stronglifts 5X5.

End of December of 2017, my numbers where a little bit higher, my bench was at ~165x3x5, OHP ~110x3x5 ~ 215 Squatx3x1 (I really wanted to hit 225 for a single (starting low bar weight 95lbs) before the year ended but I was burnt and it was the last day before the YMCA was closed for the year), and deadlift was ~225x1x5.

So my numbers has been a bit higher than what they are currently,
I did not lift for the first 2 and a half weeks of January.
I restarted SSNP, I want to get the numbers total ~900lbs but I lost a good amount of strength. I am actually having issues getting my current numbers back to what they were at the end of January. What is the cause of strength lose besides not lifting, not eating as much? I had a few drinks over the New Years but nothing to get me drunk or anything like that.

Does it sound like I am exhausting the straight across program?
As far as calorie intake goes,I was ~185ish when I started Stronglifts (then I did SS)
The ENT was to describe a possible sleep issue. Dr.Baraki talked about stress management so I was telling you what I do to do so.
Please do not feel like you are being harsh, if it seems like I need a kick in the ass please let me know.

[cknepfler]

Have you encountered clients who have much higher or lower caloric needs than what you would have otherwise thought based on their age, weight, activity level etc? Do the terms Endomorph and Ectomorph have anything to do with those potentially perceived differences?

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@Paramveer753

First things first, I was a bit triggered about my lack of results over the years so I was feeling like a victim and special snowflake when I posted.

First two years of being in the gym I was horsing around with program hopping, with my bench at 185 for one, high bar at 185 for one, and a monstrous 300lbs sumo squat (all low back and tight belt lol, not proud of that) Middle of second year I hurt my back doing sumo while being ignorant of my low back (glad I was pulling 225, I was literally doing a form check when I hurt my back, so it’s all on camera if you want to see it, show people what not to do lol). Third year is horsing around as well, but… I was doing a lot of mobility/flexibly work and spent 3 months doing front squats and hurting my back (hey its less stressful on low back right?). After 3 months, Barbell Jesus (Alan Thrall lol) posted a video about Low bar. Spend a few months learning the form of that with trial and error hurting my back. After not having any issues with my back is when I bought weightlifting shoes and started Stronglifts 5X5.

End of December of 2017, my numbers where a little bit higher, my bench was at ~165x3x5, OHP ~110x3x5 ~ 215 Squatx3x1 (I really wanted to hit 225 for a single (starting low bar weight 95lbs) before the year ended but I was burnt and it was the last day before the YMCA was closed for the year), and deadlift was ~225x1x5.

So my numbers has been a bit higher than what they are currently,
I did not lift for the first 2 and a half weeks of January.
I restarted SSNP, I want to get the numbers total ~900lbs but I lost a good amount of strength. I am actually having issues getting my current numbers back to what they were at the end of January. What is the cause of strength lose besides not lifting, not eating as much? I had a few drinks over the New Years but nothing to get me drunk or anything like that.

Does it sound like I am exhausting the straight across program?
As far as calorie intake goes,I was ~185ish when I started Stronglifts (then I did SS)
The ENT was to describe a possible sleep issue. Dr.Baraki talked about stress management so I was telling you what I do to do so.
Please do not feel like you are being harsh, if it seems like I need a kick in the ass please let me know.

How many weeks off or missed training sessions have you had in the past 2 years ?

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@cknepfler

Have you encountered clients who have much higher or lower caloric needs than what you would have otherwise thought based on their age, weight, activity level etc? Do the terms Endomorph and Ectomorph have anything to do with those potentially perceived differences?

I never have, actually.

[Paramveer753]

@Jordan_Feigenbaum

How many weeks off or missed training sessions have you had in the past 2 years ?

I don’t have an exact answer for that, I’ve had always give a top priority of going into the gym to work out (minimum time to treatmill). I’ll admit to not doing anything like SSLP, but I had the intent of getting the barbell/ dumbbell numbers up. I’ll end up getting stuck at a number and ask for advice from people that were stronger and they tell me to do another variation and go back. Once I go back I would have lost a good amount of strength and slightly lose motivation.

Just typing this and reflecting is making me realize how I was a bunny hopping around in my training with the intent to up barbell/dumbbell number.

I’ve only missed a half to whole week due to: Asthma attack that required going to the ER in late ‘15, and at least one bad asthma attack or sinus infection per year that will leave me huffin and puffin for a few days or a week, and misc thing once in a blue moon (family, school, low back issues)
Hope this wasn’t to vague.

[cknepfler]

Ok, so obviously this isn’t your favorite topic. But please let me ask just a couple more follow ups, because I am definitely open minded and wanting to learn the truth here. I get that somatypes are ‘fake’ and that lots of people just want an excuse for why they cant get the results they want. Trust me I’m not trying to do that. But how would you explain away some of the anecdotal stuff you hear from meeting and talking to people? Like body builders who have told me they cut on 2800 kCal a day and yet when i was training for a half marathon a couple years ago I upped my calorie intake to about 3000 and gained weight? Or an owner of a gym who is 185 lbs and i reviewed his fitness pal with him and he eats 4,000 kCal a day and cant gain. Is this all just written off to people recording things wrong, not being honest with themselves, etc? There certainly are differences in genetics that guys acknowledge and reference frequently when it comes to things other than metabolism. So while a direct connection to metabolism through particular genetics may be irresponsible, IE he is bigger so he has a slower metabolism. Isn’t it possible still that there can some difference in biology with respect to metabolism?

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@Paramveer753

I don’t have an exact answer for that, I’ve had always give a top priority of going into the gym to work out (minimum time to treatmill). I’ll admit to not doing anything like SSLP, but I had the intent of getting the barbell/ dumbbell numbers up. I’ll end up getting stuck at a number and ask for advice from people that were stronger and they tell me to do another variation and go back. Once I go back I would have lost a good amount of strength and slightly lose motivation.

Just typing this and reflecting is making me realize how I was a bunny hopping around in my training with the intent to up barbell/dumbbell number.

I’ve only missed a half to whole week due to: Asthma attack that required going to the ER in late ‘15, and at least one bad asthma attack or sinus infection per year that will leave me huffin and puffin for a few days or a week, and misc thing once in a blue moon (family, school, low back issues)
Hope this wasn’t to vague.

Well, it doesn’t really answer my question Paramveer753.

Given your demographic I am forced to either believe you do not respond very robustly to your existing training (which may be true) or that there is more going on here. That said, my recommendation is the same:

I would have you do SSNLP as written for 6-10 weeks, then do the Bridge, then do one of our templates.
You should see a coach to get your form ironed out.
You should eat a calorie maintenance without any special tricks or tactics.

[Jordan_Feigenbaum]

@cknepfler

Ok, so obviously this isn’t your favorite topic. But please let me ask just a couple more follow ups, because I am definitely open minded and wanting to learn the truth here. I get that somatypes are ‘fake’ and that lots of people just want an excuse for why they cant get the results they want.

Okay.

@cknepfler

Trust me I’m not trying to do that. But how would you explain away some of the anecdotal stuff you hear from meeting and talking to people?

What stuff?

@cknepfler

Like body builders who have told me they cut on 2800 kCal a day and yet when i was training for a half marathon a couple years ago I upped my calorie intake to about 3000 and gained weight?

That doesn’t seem unrealistic. A longitudinal study on women training for a marathon showed they gained weight (and fat mass) without increasing their calories significantly over 18 months.

@cknepfler

Or an owner of a gym who is 185 lbs and i reviewed his fitness pal with him and he eats 4,000 kCal a day and cant gain.

Likely poor estimation and inconsistent tracking. May eat 4000kCal 1 day, 2000 another.

@cknepfler

Is this all just written off to people recording things wrong, not being honest with themselves, etc? There certainly are differences in genetics that guys acknowledge and reference frequently when it comes to things other than metabolism. So while a direct connection to metabolism through particular genetics may be irresponsible, IE he is bigger so he has a slower metabolism. Isn’t it possible still that there can some difference in biology with respect to metabolism?

You’re asking if there are differences in how people respond to training and nutrition and the answer is yes.

However, the calorie intake isn’t terribly influenced by this. A few hundred calories, sure. Thousands? Nope.

[Paramveer753]

@Jordan_Feigenbaum

Well, it doesn’t really answer my question Paramveer753.

Given your demographic I am forced to either believe you do not respond very robustly to your existing training (which may be true) or that there is more going on here. That said, my recommendation is the same:

I would have you do SSNLP as written for 6-10 weeks, then do the Bridge, then do one of our templates.
You should see a coach to get your form ironed out.
You should eat a calorie maintenance without any special tricks or tactics.

Hey doc, hope you have time for an old post.

I reran LP like you said and managed to add 120lbs to my total (35 lbs to the squat specifically while adding a light day on Wednesday)

I am a bit tight on money at the moment, so I got some form advice from SS forum. There were some adjustments needed (need more back extension, needed to actually lock my elbows during the bench, feet a bit closer, bar to close to shins) nothing too serious.

I’m currently 206 (I know you said to eat at maintenance)

I was actually bullshitting myself with the calories. Although the calories were fairly accurate, the fat were a bit to high (like 100 Grams +) and carbs a bit to low on rest days (like 160g), so that was reconciled.

I plateaued at 225lbs Squat and 172.5 Bench recently, even though you said to do the Bridge after 6-10 weeks. Would you still recommend me doing the Bridge or deload the LP and do it once more to get the numbers higher.

After listening to the jaw dropping episode #23 of the BBM podcast, I am a bit skeptical of my next move, either doing the bridge or deloading has been a circle jerk of thoughts.
Because I got my act together, I feel as though I can squeeze more out the LP, but then thinking about being training resistant and needing volume is going back and forth.
Thank you once again.

[Bak2ThaBasix]

Oldie but goodie post.

Doc Jordan,

just to make sure im understanding this right and of course correct me if I am wrong.

Your position is that when considering somatotype the nutritional needs (based on somatotype) are no different? That the main basis for utilizing somatotypes is for training response?

yes there are biological differences for BMR but it is not dependent or has no correlation with somatotype?