c) You should eat 5 times per day tops since 3-5 refractory period when more leucine doesn’t help with your MPS at all. Quick math tells me that you need at best (let’s say we are talking about young healthy male) 5*20= 100 g of whey protein tops per day to maximize your MPS. I undestand that different sources of protein have different % of leucine, but your usual recomendations about protein intake are so much higher than 100 g, so I wondered what’s a point of eating 200g+? Wouldn’t it all be oxidized or converted to fat/glucose?
This question has been asked a number of times and it suggests to me some confusion secondary to the article. I should probably make an addendum.
That said, I will ask two questions back to you:
In what world is someone’s only protein source whey?
For a person eating 3000 calories per day, put together a meal plan where they get 3g of leucine per meal from whole food sources without going over 180g protein total.
I undestand that the further we are going from whey the more protein you need to cover this 3g of leucine. But the difference is staggering to me, especially when we are talking about big guys. I mean most protein recomendation are based on your body mass and if I undestand your article correctly it doesn’t really matter how big you are and you will get max leucine response as 140 kg guy from the same amount protein (leucine per meal) as 60 kg guy. But this 140 kg guy will get recomendation to eat like 400g of protein per day.
TL;DR - wouldn’t it make more sense to have fixed amount of protein recomendation (with small explanation of about leucine per meal) instead of body weight related or I miss something?
I’m the opposite of nutrition specialist, that’s why I here - I’m finally want to get my food in order.
But let’s say we are talking with 3000 calories per day in mind. Since (as far as I undestand) protein is the most saturated macronutrient which means it’s the hardest to eat. Wouldn’t it be more sense to replace extra, I don’t know how much, let’s say 100g of protetin that doesn’t contribute to MPS to just carbs or fats since they are easier to consume?
But he shouldn’t. I don’t think a fixed amount of protein is a good idea either since it does depend on body weight for other reasons. I’m hoping you can think about this and tell me why
Haha fair enough.
Use myfitnesspal and come up with a diet plan for a day that yields 3000 calories, 3g leucine per meal (more or less), and is under 180g protein. Try it.
a) Since muscle gainz is muscle synthesize - muscle breakdown, extra protein even if it doesn’t help grow muscle per se can somehow help reducing muscle breakdown which whould lead to more muscle mass.
If this is true wouldn’t carbs/fats do the same?
b) If we focus on leucine too much we may miss other EAA. Eating just to cover 3 g of leucine will miss them and it will be bad for health/MPS (?).
c) Larger guys need more calories. Even if we limit each meal to 3g leucine via protein, other calories had to come from carbs or fats. And since high fat diet is not very good for gym-bro it has to come from carbs. And carbs your usually recomend usually have some protein in them so more calories → more carbs → naturally it will increase amount of protein.
That’s all I could think off.
First meal
Eggs, OJ, Oats on milk, few slice of bread with peanut butter. 1045 calories 87/44/60 (c/f/p)
Second meal, let’s say before workout
Chiken, rice, milk. 856 calories 50/43/50
Third meal, after workout
Whey with milk, rice. 579 calories 53/16/40
Last supper
Chicken, buckwheat 528 calories 29/30/38
Overall 3008 calories, 172 protein, 3g L per meal.
I know this is probably a horrible plan but that’s not the point. With usuall recomendation 180g of protein is super low to a guy like me who weights 105 kg/230 pounds. Eating less than gram/pound body weight feels like a blasphemy in fitness community and often I’ll see 1.2-1.5 per pound body weight which means I undereat like 100 g of protein per day.
That’s why I created the topic - to undestand that there is a reason I have to eat so much more protein, and I’m leaving big part of my gainz when eat only 170-200 g of protein per day. But since it’s kinda hard to eat that much protein and it isn’t cheap I came here to find the reason how extra protein could help.
I think it’s important to realize that while many things are “known” in medicine, science, and health, there are many more unknowns and uncertainties. Subsequently, I’d put some of these assertions in the uncertainty category until more data specifically addressing it accumulates.
That said, when you say that MPS =/= optimizing training adaptations I’d agree with that in a semantics sense, but I’m not sure if there would be any literal difference.
Consider that most studies looking at protein supplementation with resistance training show improved LBM, strength, and muscle CSA when high quality protein sources are used at a dose that generates a good MPS response (which you’re more sensitive to post workout anyway). Increasing the dose doesn’t necessarily improve those things unless the context changes, e.g. higher dose of protein compared to a lower protein diet overall, for instance.
So, I’m not sure I would say that eating a higher protein diet increases training adaptations unless that statement is couched appropriately.
Without knowing how much of each you are suggesting here it’s hard to verify your work, but it’s extremely difficult to get 20-25g protein from a high quality source (e.g. one with 3g leucine and the full complement of EAAs) per meal in a 3000+ calorie/day diet without going over 180-200g protein.
You see, all your carb and fat sources have proteins too and since you’re eating them to help get your calories in, your total protein intake goes up to be about 50-60g protein per meal unless you’re really trying to keep protein low.
Wouldn’t you say that the “rules” for prescribing protein, ie, 1.15x bodyweight for weight loss during training for non-special populations (if I remember correctly from TBAB) is at least an attempt at optimizing protein intake (or in the ballpark) if not optimizing it outright?
Thanks so much for taking the time to edit my post, I really appreciate it, as well as taking the time to school me and everyone on this.
Ok now I’m really confused. If by optimizing your protein you are optimizing the accrument of training adaptations, muscular or otherwise, how can you say they are different? You can’t optimize your training adaptation accrument without optimizing your protein intake, or is that wrong?
I feel like I’m missing something big… is it called a Medical Degree? Lol
You are not optimizing your training adaptations by simply optimizing protein intake. They are not the same thing. Having the correct protein intake is one piece of the puzzle, but it isn’t the whole story.
Of course. I don’t mean to suggest that it is the only thing to do to achieve that, but that it is an integral part of the entire optimization pantheon as you just said.
I presented this like I was talking about terms and I didn’t mean to. My fault. I also recognize I was unintentionally insinuating that it was indeed the only thing you should do. Thank you for calling me out on that, my apologies.
Having said that… assuming a hypothetical trainee is optimizing everything else except optimizing their protein for training, optimizing their protein intake would equate to optimizing their training outcomes. That’s the point I was trying to make.
