MPS arithmetic and the protein/leucine relationship

Hello, Jordan -

Questions that I hope aren’t bringing up a sore subject…

I’ve read your material that indicates muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is optimized if it includes about 3-4g of leucine per meal. Importantly, there is a refractory period of about 3-5 hours that must pass before another dose of leucine will trigger MPS. You also recommend “3-5 meals x day, tops”.

Finally, you recommend in general that your grams of daily protein intake should be in the ballpark of your weight in pounds (excepting of course for special cases).

So…an arithmetic problem having to do with all of these variables got me to thinking about this more deeply. Assume a hypothetical diet where whey is the only source of protein for each meal (because it’s the “King of all proteins”…and perhaps this is where my hypothetical goes off track immediately because hopefully one would never do this). Further assume an MPS-optimizing dose of 3.5g of leucine (the average of 3-4g) at each meal, which equates to about 23g of protein for your Whey Rx powder. Finally, also assume an MPS refractory period of 4 hours (average of 3-5 hours).

With these parameters, at even 5 meals per day one would be unable to reach the grams/bodyweight protein recommendation if one weighed more than 115lbs; five 23g whey protein meals spaced 4 hours apart, with the first meal at 7am and the last at a quite late 11pm, would result in only 115g of protein for the whole day. But as far as MPS is concerned, any more leucine than that which was consumed at each meal would have been a waste.

Questions:

1.) Is protein intake/meal in excess of that which yields 3-4g of leucine a “waste” only insofar as MPS is concerned, i.e., are there other damned good reasons to intake more protein in a meal than maybe that which generates the optimal 3-4g leucine/meal dose (e.g., maybe hitting appropriate macro levels, getting sufficient calories, etc.)? Otherwise, how would a 200lbs guy ever reach is 200g protein/day recommendation using what is widely accepted as the “King” of protein without overshooting what is optimal for MPS? Asked differently, is the whole point of consuming protein basically because it has leucine? I was getting worried that I was “wasting” much of the 200g+ protein per day that I have been eating, but then…

2.) …I noticed that there are other protein sources besides whey that provide more protein grams per unit of leucine. For example, 4oz of turkey breast (my favorite) apparently yields 35g of protein, but only about 2g of leucine (if Google can be trusted). This suggests that protein content of foodstuffs is not directly proportional to its leucine content, even in animal products. True? For example, your Whey Rx product has noticeably more leucine per gram of protein than does turkey breast, apparently. So, being a frequent eater of turkey breast, I thought that maybe I hadn’t wasted anything after all.

3.) Assuming #2 is “true”, might this not counsel one to consume the great majority of his protein from sources such as turkey breast and the like, because such sources would help him reach his daily protein gram target without overshooting the leucine/meal target for optimum MPS? Is this perhaps why whey should generally be consumed as a “supplement” in the truest sense of that word?

4.) Can I make a solid and contrarian case for saying that turkey breast is actually the King of protein? After all, I can use it to reach my daily protein requirement with less fear of “overdosing” my leucine/meal targets than if I relied more heavily on whey.

Sorry if I’m rambling…I hate following rules blindly. I like knowing WHY. And thanks to you and your team for indulging all of my questions!

Threjack,

Thanks for your post and I hope you’re doing well.

  1. Not really. EAAs are needed to drive subsequent MPS bouts so they’re not wasted per se’. On the extreme end however, eating 300g protein per day would produce a situation where a decent amount is being used for energy and not MPS.

  2. It’s about 2.3 depending on the part of the turkey. The protein content is proportional to the leucine content in these examples, as increasing the protein increases the leucine. However, the base level relationships are not equivalent to whey.

  3. I don’t think overshooting leucine target is a thing I’d be concerned with outside of an inborn BCAA metabolism disorder. Whey is fine for meal replacements IMO.

  4. Not even close. For about 2/3 the calories in 4oz of turkey you’ll get way more leucine and EAAs from whey.

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Thanks, Jordan

Is there anything really wrong with whey being the primary protein source of all of your meals?

I doubt it…

Sure. It might increase your cholesterol levels if you are susceptible to it, decrease your intake of certain minerals found in meet, eliminate a main source of certain fats, etc.

No one is gonna do that for 30 years consistently so we can find out anyway, you know?

Yeah OK, I see.

I don’t eat meat during the week so my animal protein sources for each meal (4x a day) are whey and milk.

I’ll survive!

Thanks Doc.

May I ask why?

Yeah sure.

Just ethical reasons. I try to avoid intensive livestock (to be fully coherent I’d have to become vegan honestly but that’s not going to happen).

That being said, on weekends I sometimes go out to nice restaurants in Italy and eat game for example.

Would you advise against so much whey?

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I don’t know if I can advocate for safety or harm of it, but I think if I were in your shoes I would try get my protein from a variety of sources.

If I may Jordan, here’s an example of a typical day:

7.20am 1 scoop whey + 500ml whole milk + 0.75g oats
(49P, 73C, 25F)

12.45pm 100g pasta + 150g peas + 150g spinach + 1 scoop whey + 250ml low fat milk
(58P, 115C, 9F)

5.15pm (pre workout) 1 scoop whey + 400ml low fat milk + 0.75g oats
(46P, 69C, 13F)

10pm (post workout) 80g rice + 240g beans + 1 scoop whey + 600ml low fat milk
(67P, 122C, 11F)

TOTAL: 220P, 378C, 68F ~3000KCal, 40g fibre

Other than reducing the whey intake, any other suggestions?

Thank you Jordan,
Matteo

More fruits and a variety of vegetables.