This geezer is ramping up, not down. The notion that someone in their 30s is old, is completely retarded.
I’m running out Andys GGW program and previously ran the strength & mass four day split. All the while I’ve had a copy of The Bridge sitting there and you would be surprised, or not, how commonly the weight percentages on Andys programming and RPE intersect when you reference the percentages back and fourth.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him come with a program that incorporated some form of auto-regulation the future. Meeting the prescribed percentages on GGW at the pointy end gets tough if your training ducks haven’t exactly been in a row that week.
Yeah, If you overshoot your initial E1RM, weeks 7-9 can be a bitch. Great time to implement RPE there if needed.
I’ve already chalked Rip and company’s position on this as a frustration I don’t need. It’s easier for me to just move on. I don’t even visit the site or forum there anymore. I’ve done this before with other things, like political issues, folks being Auburn fans (Roll Tide after all), or whatever else. Hanging around over there to see what kind of new ways they can show their lack of reasoning with all this just isn’t necessary. I have enough real drama in my life without getting worked up over how folks should train.
Edit: Didn’t mean to suggest others should follow suit. It’s an interesting situation no doubt. Just saying that’s what I did a couple weeks ago. Everyone else feel free to enjoy!
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I agree with Jordan - there needs to be a public debate.
Yeah I’ve stopped expecting much more than condescension and salt from Rip and the more hardcore SSC crowd quite a while ago. I hope more folks find their way here.
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Yes, they are.
As someone who was so excited to discover the SS method a few years ago, I find their (d)evolving behavior to be really disheartening. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised; Rip’s wit, at first, can be engaging and funny…as long as you ignore that much of it is at the expense of others. Seeing things play out on the SS forums since I first discovered the site has been like watching something cool morph into something that is too frequently ugly, and Rip and his acolytes’ schtick have worn thin on me (and this from somebody who generally agrees with him politically). Rip, while obviously intelligent, experienced, and in many ways pretty damned interesting, unfortunately also comes across as a misanthrope. It’s a shame.
Frankly, the whole training protocol debate between SS and BBM is something I don’t know that I have the ability to discern - both “sides” have forgotten more about this stuff than I’ll ever know. But suffice it to say that it gives me great pause when Rip and Co. resort to patronizing snark, character assassination, and condescension. It strongly suggests to me that they themselves are not confident in their knowledge (I’m going to make an exception for Andy Baker, for whom I have developed a lot more respect than the others. He far less dogmatic, and he comes across as far less personally hostile. BTW, I’m running his GGW program now, to good effect). My father always told me that when the other side starts calling you names, you know they feel like they’re losing the argument on the merits.
Their hypocrisy is stunning, too. So often Rip & co’s response to a persistent argument that doesn’t fit their paradigm is “how many world-class powerlifters have YOU coached?!” But at the same time this is precisely the defense that Rip can Co. (rightfully) eviscerates when employed by D1 college and professional sports teams’ strength & conditioning coaches who cite their pupil’s world-class athletic prowess as proof of the efficacy of their methods. You can’t help but conclude that they’re evading the question (while at the same time belittling the questioner).
People who truly are certain of their stuff usually don’t get so damned defensive and hostile when somebody questions them.
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That BBL Podcast thread is pretty much turning into the intermediate programming thread pt. 2 at this point… I’ll freely admit that I have found quite a bit of entertainment in all the saltiness from this debate , but this one from Rip has really got me going (bolded emphasis mine):
“Plenty? No sir, there are not. The use of prescriptive RPE, especially based on the warmups, is coaching malpractice, in that you hire a coach to program your training, not to hand the responsibility for determining your work sets back to you. If you know enough about this to determine your work sets, you don’t hire a programmer. You just train.”
So does that mean I should fire my SSOC? Surely I should get a refund for my past 6mo of coaching, since my coach is clearly lazy and couldn’t even be bothered to tell me exactly what weights I should do every day. Is Rip not aware that many SSOCs use RPE in their programming, both prescriptively and as modifiers within a target weight range?
Furthermore, does the Jordan/Austin/etc. split from SS suddenly invalidate the experience and success they’ve had coaching lifters with such methods?
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I can’t get over the fact that the SS people completely ignore the that the BBM crew themselves have coached countless people, so they too have empirical evidence to back up their recommendations. This should be obvious to people.
Austin has mentioned that he hasn’t missed a single rep in training in YEARS (gee, but how can someone possibly make progress without grinding through bone-on-bone sets every week?). Yet here he is, a lean 200 lbs, lifting very impressive weights (with unreal bar speed).
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I don’t believe Rip would ever agree to a public debate. He doesn’t have an argument beyond “40 years experience” and he appears to know it. Which I find very sad, for someone who claims to base everything on evidence and science.
His refusal to discuss these issues, beyond insults and snark, is very telling.
TM doesn’t have as much volume as SSNLP??? How can you write that when it has more volume in a week than the LP has in a day? Rip and stef have been very clear on this point.
I find this quote, and others like it, to be so hilarious. SSOC coaches program with RPE. The end. Basically his entire argument is: a live coach is more effective than self regulating using RPE. No freaking shit. But for the 90% of us who either can’t afford a live coach, or don’t live anywhere near one, what are we supposed to do? His answer now, of course, is SSOC. And see my previous point. SSOCs USE RPE!!! BECAUSE THEY’RE NOT THERE.
And just once I’d like to see someone out appeal to authority him with Mike T. Sorry Rip. How many world record holders have you coached? Because Mike’s coached 8. EIGHT!!! And he has intermediates auto regulate intensity AND volume.
Nick’s response that Chase just got lazy is also so perfect. I’m glad to see it’s not just my experience with SS coaches. They take absolutely no responsibility for your progress unless it’s good, in which case they’re happy to take full credit. If your progress isn’t great, it’s because you’re doing something wrong – and if they can’t find something obvious to point to like form, then it’s simply your inferior genetics.
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“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” - Max Planck (originator of modern quantum physics theories)
It is the same with training, Rip, SS, and SSOC (although SSOC is sorta trying to do it via the back door by using RPE but not admitting they do on their podcast). Mike T, Jordan, Austin are the new genration of coaches, amongst others I don’t know. Rip, SSOC, Reynolds, etc, are the old generation as indicated by their constant chest beating about being a man etc (which itself is contrary to the psychological research of late about raising boys - I am interested and am looking at as I have a boy toddler and dont want to raise a kuckle dragging misanthrope a la Rip, some SSCs, Reynolds, etc).
For clarity, I hold SS in very high regard for the biomechanical analysis and the coaching of the four lifts; squat, deadlift, press, and bench press. That is where their expertise lies. Beyond that, I don’t hold them in high regard, particuarly futher to this unfortunate fall out. I adjusted my SSLP (techincally NDTFP) for more deadlifting and less squatting and I never stalled on either.
What I did note in the Barbell Medicine YouTube video, Part 1 of the Austin Texas Q&A, is that Jordan and Austin candidly stated that at the moment the best credential to be a coach is the SSC. I don’t see that sort of behaviour imbued with integrity coming from SS unfortunately.
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I too have substantially reduced my reading of SS forums. I still follow Rip’s Q&A but don’t hang about on nor read the longer threads. I do listen to the Q&A videos as they still have good info. But on programming, and being a man, and the politics, and the constant whisky talk (I love whisky and they piss me off), and the grinding, and Reynolds talking over everyone and belittling everyone including his co-host (very gentleman like behaviour), and the so called foodie recipies (they are not foodies and probably wouldn’t know amazing food (say Michelin starred food) if it hit them in the face - Pecan pie? Chicken fried steak? Really?), and the whatever I couldn’t give a toss anymore. Unsubscribed from the Barbell Logic podcast as there is no logic. Now it and SS have become tribal and the guests are simply there to bang on and sell the dug in heels position of SS.
[/rant]
I have far too much time at work today…
I have to admit, Barbell Logic is now my guilty pleasure for drama instead of information. For like 2 months now I think, every episode has had sideways mentions of the programming controversy. Reynolds frequently changes up his message based on the conversation to either paint a BBM position as a straw man (“Yea we just don’t want to give them a huge amount of volume right away and crush them, we want to titrate it up”) or straight up goes against prior messaging by, without acknowledgement, lifting BBM material wholesale (see: the podcast w/ Andy Baker). Also he is so consumed by this controversy that he has to twist about the discussion EVERY time volume is brought up (e.g. recent Steve Hill episode talking about volume-responders) to make it seem like it supports the BBL/SS position even if it doesn’t. I enjoy this kind of stuff now the same way I used to listen to crazy right-wing radio on the way to work and laugh about it.
To do an open-faced compliment sandwich though, I did like some of their more technical episodes, especially the Deadlift one. It made me hope for more BBM videos in the style of the Bench press one.
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Yes that was repulsive. Whatever happened to “it’s your responsibility, as a coach, to figure out a way to make them move the way you want them to move” (IIRC)… lol
To be fair, I do want to point out that your statement was a generalization probably not intended to apply to all SSCs. Most of them are silent, working hard and taking care of their own small businesses. I have never had the fortune to work with one on a consistent basis for an 8 or 12-week program as a “client” per se, but I do want to recommend the effectiveness of the occasional form checks in person with them. In comparison with a couple different gym personal trainers I’ve worked with before, the SSCs I’ve seen are less flattering for sure. They exert authority and make you feel like that you have to earn their respect through your platform performance. True, this attitude does seem aloof at times, and tend to make you become more self-doubting and critical, but I think it’s a good thing for novice and young people as disciplines and good forms are more important in their cases.
Less ranty than Teddy, but yea, many of these same points have really taken the shine off the apple of the SS brand for me. To the extent that they focus on how to change normal people’s lives for the better by getting them to barbell train safely, productively, and for as long as they are able, they are golden. But this other mishegas is just… unfortunate. It ranges from mildly annoying and easy to ignore to insulting and condescending. and I don’t need that in my life.
Either way, after my meet I’m planning on sticking to this forum.
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SS is still the most useful credential in the industry. I trust anyone with the credential to coach the main barbell movements. They are the experts in that domain.
What I don’t trust is their ability to program post novice. Or even late novice really. There are of course plenty of SSCs that can, but the credential/organization itself lends zero credibility to post novice programming. And far too many of them are Advanced Beginner barbell training programmers with extreme, deep seated insecurities – which is a recipe for the type of behavior I described and exhibited by Nick.
It would be fun 
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Speaking of “prescriptive” . . .
He posted the same thing in the BBL discussion thread on Rip’s Q&A. I LOL’d. This whole thing has become absurd but I must say that the BBM crew is conducting themselves with a great deal more dignity than SS. It’s like night and day.
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