Hello all, I’m new here. I’m finishing up my SSLP, so here’s the info on that
Male
19
6’3"
220 lbs
4200 kcals/day
220 g protein/day
Squat: 315x3x5
Deadlift: 335x5
Bench: 202.5x3x5
Press: 130x3x5
I’m writing because I’m due to make a change soon. SSLP has worked better (for my squat, I should premise) than any program in recent memory, including programs I wrote myself trying to use some of the wisdom I’ve gained from listening to the BBM crew. Those RPE-based programs didn’t work very well for me, and that’s why I switched to something that I thought was guaranteed to work if I put my all into it. Here I am 15 pounds heavier and with ~20 pounds on my squat, ~20 pounds on my deadlift, and probably nothing else to show for it. I’d like to lose some weight, as I’m a bit tired of being told I’m underweight by the SS crew and overweight by nearly everyone else (former very skinny kid). I guess to get to the point, what should I do next from a BBM perspective? My plan was to switch to Texas Method for those who care about conditioning in Feigenbaum’s Texas Method article because I do care about conditioning and would in fact like to lose a few pounds, but I don’t think that will make either camps happy (Because SS hates conditioning and BBM hates Texas Method). I know that the bridge is recommended, and I’d be happy to follow it to a T, but my one problem is that I thought RPE didn’t work well for me because I couldn’t gauge it well. I don’t have a coach, and I teach myself as I go. I feel like I do much better to work on a percentage-basis, or, as with SS and Texas Method, a ‘you better get this weight or die trying’ type of program. To make a long question long, what should I do in a few weeks?
Thanks in advance for the responses to a newbie in the community.
I would think that taking some time to learn a skill like RPE that could benefit you for many years to come would be a worthy pursuit. I would definitely not recommend doing the Texas Method while losing weight unless you have a death wish. That being said, if you are terribly adverse to learning RPE at this time Greg Nuckols has some good free programs on his site if you sign up for his email list that utilize percentages.
I guess I worry about the Bridge and its mountain of variations that I have had little exposure to. On the competition lifts, I can kind of fall back on percentages, but not really with the variations, especially the ones that change from week-to-week. But I’d be willing to deal with that. I guess one of my big questions is what is the big picture with The Bridge? There is a follow-up to the Texas Method that leads all the way to DUP-style programming once one is very advanced. Does BBM have a similar progression or idea of progression?
Well you use RPE to quickly find the loads you need in lifts you don’t have experience with. This is part of where RPE shines. In a percentage based program if you don’t have any past data you’re kind of screwed. You have to waste a whole training session in advance do a 1RM test just to get the data you need to start the program. In BBM programming your first variation set for the day is typically like an RPE 6 or 7, so you just keep adding weight to the bar in your warmups until you hit the desired RPE. So if say that was RPE 6, and your next set is an RPE 7 you simply add 3-5% to the bar and do your next set. Easy. Don’t be afraid of variations. After awhile you’re going to grow so bored with doing the same lifts all the time that you’ll actually get really excited about a new variation, or one you haven’t had in the cycle for awhile, lol.
For BBM there is no set programming progression, and really there should never be a set progression because peoples goals differ. Trying to filter every person regardless of goals down the same path is simply asinine and ineffective at best. The Bridge is a way to transition from SS into general post novice programming, while increasing volume, work capacity, muscle mass, and adding in regular conditioning along the way. Adding weight on the bar is not the only goal in the bridge, it’s about laying a foundation for long term success. Now once you’re “bridged” over and have filled the gaps that SS left unattended, then it’s time to decide what goals you want to pursue. There are n number of routes you can take, and each will look different from a programming perspective. Post-novice programming is nuanced. That being said, BBM has many programming options depending on what your goals are. So to better direct you on the path, what are your long term goals ordered by priority? Any athletic, physical or body composition goal needs to be included.
I appreciate the information. I’m not afraid of RPE, and I’ll learn how to use if if that’s what will work best. My biggest fear is that I’ll get comfortable accepting that a belted squat 5@8 is 300 pounds and that’s that. In the past, I’ve been reluctant to go for 305 because it could be a 9, and I will have made a mistake.
Since you asked, I do in fact have some goals.
My bench press hasn’t moved in a very long time in any meaningful way. I’d love to bench press 250 one day (best is currently 220)
My waist is about 36.5 inches right now. I’d like it to be more in the 34 inch range. (without losing tremendous strength of course. Time frame for this can be long; I’m patient)
I’d like to be generally healthy. Lower my heart rate, lower my blood pressure a bit, the whole nine yards.
I’d like to total 1000 pounds. In which sport doesn’t really matter to me. Powerlifting would surely come first, but in strengthlifting would be just as cool.
I also have no fear of writing my own programming and screwing up and being ‘suboptimal’ if it means I learned something and will get where I need to go in the future. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see myself getting as strong as the crew by following their templates on repeat. I feel they would agree that one must adjust their own programming so that they could increase volume and such until new PRs can be realized. The confusing part is looking at their training logs, they aren’t doing ridiculous amounts of volume from my summation. I’d really like to learn more about the training philosophy and/or methods of BBM. The real nuts and bolts, like a practical programming, does such a thing exist?
If you haven’t already, read through the bridge 1.0. There’s some good basic info on learning RPE. If you’ve been lifting for any amount of time (which you have), you’re doing it already…you’re just not putting numbers on it yet. You should know when you’re doing a RPE 10 set vs. having a rep or two left in the tank. That’s really all it is, it just takes practice.
Dont try try to follow the doc’s training logs…they are advanced lifters doing stuff like block and DUP training or peaking cycles for meets.
Also, regarding the SS people telling you you’re underweight. Rip told Austin and Jordan they were underweight too. So there’s that.
Yeah, I’ve even used RPE before. I’m guessing that it was my own programming that was to blame for my lack of progress, not necessarily RPE. I’ll likely get back to it and get better at it.
I understand. Do you have any other suggestions about how to learn about programming for yourself from their perspective? I’ve listened to lots of their stuff and understand general philosophy (volume must increase; exercise variation is good; heavy sets of fahve aren’t normally preferred to singles at a controlled RPE; etc.), but questions like, “Why are we doing tempo squats today? Why 3-0-3? Why sets of 6 instead of sets of 7? Why not just do the main movement all the time? Why not just do the variations all the time” have their own answers in my mind, but how exactly the docs would put everything together into a program is not clear. And my biggest question, “What comes next?” is the least clear.
I also understand that. It’s one of the reasons I’d kind of like to move away from SS. I’ve been told continually that 200 then 210 and now 220 is too light for me, even though I don’t feel like I’ve gotten a great bang for my buck in gaining those 20 pounds. I’d rather talk about gaining weight out of necessity to recover and be able to do more than out of “You can lift more if you’re heavier! 600 at 280 is still stronger than 585 at 200.”
First, I wouldn’t start off writing your own programming at first. I would run some of their templates first to get a feel for it, then once you have experience with them you will have context with which to modify them. One thing to keep in mind, if you’re looking at their recent logs Leah and Austin are currently peaking for nationals this weekend, and Jordan was in a lower volume/higher intensity phase as well, he’s just recently swapped back to a higher volume phase. So don’t take what you’ve seen in their logs over the last couple months as how they train all the time, it’s just the phase they all happened to be in at the time. I just started one on one coaching with Leah this week, the volume she prescribed for me starting next week is really cranking the volume to 11. Way more volume than they have in any of their templates.
If you want to increase your bench especially, you’re going to have to crank the volume up. Do you have any time limitations? If you can train 6 days per week I would look at cycling the 4 day hypertrophy and 12 week strength templates. You’re going to likely need more volume for bench than is present in their 3 day templates. You should be able to do that while slowly losing weight, though I would likely maintain weight over the last 4 weeks of the 12 week strength template, as losing weight while peaking and lowering volume is not optimal. You will also get plenty of GPP and conditioning to help increase your overall health. I think that would be a great place to start and would check all the boxes you listed for goals.
The easiest way to learn how to “program for yourself” would be to run the templates as is, then once you have first hand experience with the templates, and some baseline data to look back on, the second time through make some small modifications. Add a little volume here, swap some variations there, etc. Then see how you respond to the changes you made. Then make more modifications the next time through and see how you responded to those. You’ll notice patterns, certain variations that work best for you, certain volume and intensity levels that each lift responds best to, etc. Then you customize further by adjusting the program to have more of whatever you find works best for you. It’s an iterative process that you slowly do over time, and everyone is a little different. No one can really make blanket statements that “this is the path you must go on because you are not a special snowflake and what worked for me will work for you”, that’s total bullshit. We all respond differently, so we need to find what works best for us, and then use that knowledge to guide our programming. I think it’s a good thing that you have all these questions in your head. Keep asking them, and when you actually run the templates I think the answers will start to come on their own.
Alright, I guess starting with The Bridge wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, then, would it? Part of me has kind of just accepted that my bench will never go up, so I’ll continue to train it and hope, but stop expecting any progress, as it hasn’t come in a long time (I’ve tried very high volume stuff. I was benching 4x/week at one time on my own programming, and I still saw no progress). I think I would enjoy cycling some of their templates, but I am rather poor, as I am a third year in undergrad, and I don’t think I can afford to buy their templates. Like I said, I’m in it for the long haul, so it’s okay if I make some mistakes and don’t make ‘optimal’ progress so long as I can figure some stuff out myself.
I know you might not be the ultimate authority on BBM methods, but I do have one question from your last paragraph. You mentioned variations that ‘work best for you’. My understanding was that variations were used to provide a novel stimulus to avoid the RBE. A secondary effect would be allowing training of the muscles involved without fatiguing the body as much, due to less total weight used. If I’m right about this, then don’t you have to cycle variations in and out? Or are you saying that a certain variation can make up a large portion of your training for a long period of time?
You should definitely cycle your variations. But you will find some variations work better than others for you. So while you will not keep a variation constant, if you find you benefit a lot from a certain variation you can program it in more often than a variation that doesn’t work well for you.
I don’t think the bridge will have enough volume for you to move your bench. It might be a good starting point to transition over to BBM style programming, but after that I would definitely try to move on to the 4 day templates. If increasing your bench is as big of a priority as you listed, I’m sure you can get creative and find some way to scrounge up money for the templates over the next couple of months. Having a 4 day skeleton to build on in the future is worth it in and of itself. Maybe sacrifice a little on the booze for a few weeks to save up, haha. At least when I was in college booze was my biggest expense by far, lol. Just because you were benching for more volume and frequency in the past doesn’t mean you had the right balance of volume/intensity/frequency. While listening to their podcasts and reading their info to understand the concepts is great, putting those concepts into practice properly is easier said than done. You really need to get some actual experience to understand the practical side as well. And having a skeleton template to start from is always great. Nobody really creates programs on their own without using at least some existing framework and/or ideas. Even BBM leverages a lot of the ideas and training organization from RTS that Jordan got from years of Mike T doing his programming. If you look at a typical RTS program and then look at a typical BBM program you will see a lot more similarities than differences. It’s very hard to go it alone without wasting loads of time. It’s not just a question of “optimal” progress vs sub-optimal progress, it’s more a question of progress vs. no progress. It is very possible to waste years of time in post-novice training putting in loads of hard work week after week yet ultimately going nowhere. I would like to see you avoid that if at all possible.
I see. I guess it’s not that I don’t have the money, I do, but I’m very careful with what I spend, which is one of the reasons why I don’t drink. I guess I would need a very good reason to spend ~$50 on a program when there are so many free ones.
What makes you think that my bench press won’t move on The Bridge? I don’t disagree with you, but I find it really odd that it hasn’t moved in such a long time, even when I’ve tried many common recommendations (including cranking up volume to doing like 150 reps on the bench in a week). If there is a right volume/intensity/frequency combo for me that is less volume than I was doing then, why do you think it wouldn’t be The Bridge? And wouldn’t it be fairly simple to add another bench variation on GPP days?
It doesn’t matter if you go to a 9 on occasion. It’s a problem if you are doing it all of the time or grossly undershooting your RPE (should be a 7 and you are 10/10 grinder). If you feel comfortable with 300 for 5@8, just add 5 pounds (LOL) and reassess after the set. It might feel like a 7.5 and you can go 310.
I didn’t say that the right volume/frequency/intensity combo would necessarily be lower volume. And tracking reps blindly is not the best proxy for volume. There’s a lot of nuance… how many sets per week, how many sets per session, how many reps per set, what variations, and at what relative intensity (i.e. RPE or percentage) were you working in? Each of those things has just as much (if not more) of an effect than total reps. The recipe is not as simple as just add reps. Boy do I wish it were that simple, lol.
The Bridge has more volume than SS, but it is still by no means a high volume program. Off the top of my head I believe it has like 8-10 sets per week. That is still very low volume for the bench. And if your bench is already stuck, I highly doubt that will get it moving again. It’s possible that maybe you’ll get a tiny bit out of the new variations since they will generate a novel stimulus, but I think the shelf life of gainzZz you can make with that volume level is likely very short given the history you’ve given me. For comparison, the 12 week strength has ~20 sets per week. And that might not even be enough if you are more on the training resistant side of things like I am (for context, I am scheduled to do 30 sets on bench next week…). But the more sets you add in the trickier of a balancing act it becomes. You can’t just take a brute force approach, volume and intensity have a give and take relationship. You can’t increase one without adjusting the other. That’s where using a template comes in handy, because even though it’s not customized to you it at least has balanced the intensity to the volume you’re doing. Now you certainly can find the right dosages on your own, but with limited practical experience I imagine it would take you years to find your way there by simply wandering in the dark.
If you really don’t want to spend money, I would seriously look at those Greg Nuckols programs I mentioned. They are in percentages, but other than that they are fine programs and they have many different variations for different training levels. You’d likely want to choose one of the higher volume bench plugins. Hanley also has a free template for his Montana Method posted on the Exodus forums (https://www.exodus-strength.com/foru…714010b6ea66dc) that might be worth a look. I think you would have better luck with running either of those over the next few months than going down the typical SSOC smash face into wall programming path.
You’ve listened to their dogmatic BS for a decent amount of time so it’s probably hard to move on from it, but that’s what you need to do. You are not underweight and your waist is under 40 (assuming no other health markers), so you don’t need to do anything. The SS people don’t know how to program, so it’s in their interest to simply tell everybody to gain weight (eat through the sticking points). Then they tell people that intensity matters more than volume because that way people are always near max sets (meaning the weight on the bar is higher and SS can brag about it).
Yeah, that’s something I have decided to believe one way or another. I don’t want to be Starting Strength kind of weight whether or not it makes me stronger. I still don’t want to trash on SS because I think they do good stuff, but I think I’m going to gravitate much more toward a BBM/RTS type of programming.
Also, PWard, thank you for mentioning RTS and Mike Tuscherer. I had heard of him before and knew of his work in RPE, but I had no idea how much of a genius the guy is. And he has a manual with his philosophy and methods in it! Though I don’t think it would be completely appropriate for me, as I’m not as advanced as his prototypical client for the program (everything else is spot on, though), but I think I’ll give his “generalized intermediate program” a go. The amount of pressing is quite high, and I really like his ideas on fatigue management. So, I’m glad you pointed me in his direction, and I think that I will start a training log here and log my progress on his program starting after my meet on the 20th.
Yeah RTS stuff is great. Like I mentioned above, Mike T has done Jordan’s programming for years. He still does to this day. BBM and RTS are very similar in their approaches. The main difference is that RTS is focused exclusively on competitive powerlifting. BBM is balanced a bit more for general strength, hypertrophy and conditioning with a powerlifting bias. Two different recipes made from the same ingredients. You can’t really go wrong with either.
Just a quick comment. As @PWard mentioned Nuckols has some good templates that aren’t RPE based. They use AMRAPs to find your e1RM. That is perfectly acceptable. Percentage based programs work as well as long as you stay away from grinding. Hanley on Exodus Strength forum has his Montana Method which is percentage based and everyone loves it. I do believe that RPE is a skill that is super valuable and worth learning. It took me awhile but now it informs all my lifts. I’m RTS coached at this point. The methods are the same as BBM. They produce world champions…so there is that. Just added weight to the bar, not so much.
I should also mention that you can cut all you want post NLP (maybe during NLP). That shit is a nocebo. Unless you are skinny, you have nothing to worry about. I put a bunch of weight on my total while on a cut over the last 9 weeks. You can cut hard and get stronger unless you are truly advanced or grossly skinny.
Yeah, I’m definitely giving out the BBM/RTS type of training a try for the next 9 weeks. Still keeping my log on SS website because old habits die hard, but I’ll be interested to see how that type of training will affect my body. I’m definitely intrigued by the way higher pressing volume in the new template. I feel like my bench is relatively poverty (225 bench vs. 350 squat), so if there’s some easy gains to make, I’m sure hoping the extra volume will bring them out. I don’t plan on cutting right now because I really care about getting stronger, but it’s definitely on the table if being 220+ is bothering me enough.