I have decided to leave the Starting Strength cult and join the Barbell Medicine cult. I look forward to the gainz
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A few weeks ago a guy at the gym flagged me as a member of the Rippetoe cult because of my squat, my belt and my shoes. Now I get to boast and preach about my new cult.
When is the crucifixion by the way? Who will convert first? Trump or Putin? I pity Rip’s chosen people who deny Feigenbaum. They will still be waiting for their Messiah for millennia.
I have to admit that the last couple weeks have sort of tainted SS in my mind. After researching RPE and reading articles and watching a lot of RTS training videos, the SS model and its coaches seem to be pushing an approach (constant grinding, lower volume, eat through sticking points) that nobody else with a lot of great lifting experience promotes. I also got tired of the “tough guy” nonsense over there that sometimes takes the place of reasonable explanations when it comes to people not progressing. I enjoyed SS and Rip for a long time, and I still think he offers some good information but SS has sort of become a caricature of itself at this point and I’m just not interested in much of what they have to say anymore. I mean, I get it, I have to eat like a pig and grind out 5RM’s every week or I’m a pussy. Got it. On that note, one thing I really like about BBM is that they value health as much or more than just plain strength. BBM will advise you to keep your waist under 40 inches and that sometimes it’s more important to lose weight than it is to gain more strength.
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Hallelujah ah and AMEN!
For me it really boils down to:
Simple, Hard, Effective.
It turns out they really mean that order. Simplicity and difficulty are prioritized over effectiveness. I got such a kick out of the Barbell Logic podcast where their freaking Chosen One (p.s. I love Chase) complained about the horror 3 months he spent on TM and how much more effective his HLM programming was after. I read that from his tone anyway – he got shouted into silence.
I too found RTS after the split and have found Mike Tuscherer to be the Rippetoe of post novice barbell lifting. Everything he says just makes way too much sense.
I’m holding out hope BBM renames their programming style “The California Method” to troll Rip (seems like they all live there). The slogan can be: “actually effective.”
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Yeah, I’ve started to feel the same way about the SS community in regards to post-novice training. I like the Barbell Logic podcast, and I enjoy Reynold’s content, but I feel they push the “Warrior Mentality” a little too much. I get that voluntary hardship is good for you, it builds character, but grinding out reps in order to “be a man”, to be a “warrior”, is just not worth sacrificing effectiveness and longevity in training.
I thought Jordan made it pretty clear in his article about how TM is not a good program, not sure why so many people still support it.
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Hanley’s already coined “(The) Montana Method”, so let’s keep it going. We’ll have a method for every state.
Now that we are free from the Tyranny of SS, I hope we can start calling it the Overhead Press like good, law-abiding citizens.
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I’m here for the same reasons as mentioned above. Reynolds seems like a good level-headed guy. However, in looking at long-term gains, RPE has been producing many of the top athletes in the US. This can also be seen in the numbers put up by the Doctors (including Dr. Loraine Baraki). I’m not interested, at 45, in getting strong as fast as possible. I’m interested in getting as strong as possible over time. I credit SS for getting me on this road, but after a couple month of NLP, it does get more complicated…and nuanced.
I’m not an advocate for burning bridges with the SS community. If for no other reason than that SS has a pipeline of coaches highly qualified in form critique, whereas BBM has, what 5?
I still have faith that if a coach has the SSC credential, I’ll get quality form coaching from them, even if I might not buy into their intermediate programming paradigm.
On a personal level, I find TMPHBITEU repulsive, but I’d take form coaching from him or one of his credentialed alcolites any day.
By the way, per Rippetoe on 2/23/2018
We didn’t “remove” anyone, no one’s credential has been revoked, and any action to terminate a credential must be initiated by either the still-inactive Dispute Resolution Committee or the holder of the credential. As of this afternoon, we have not been notified that any of the people involved have relinquished their credential, and I have asked for this process to be accomplished by USPS Certified Mail. When a relinquishment notice is received through proper channels, the holder will be removed from the SSC Directory.
Outside the context of the BBM split, I do know of one other way for an SSC to lose their credential. I got introduced to the SS community by reading Tom Narvaez’s powerliftingtowin.com programing review articles, and his recommendations to read PPfST. When I mentioned that in the Rippetoe Q&A forum, Rip mentioned that Tom is no longer an SSC because he let his credentials laps by not paying the association dues.
If I had a BBM coach’s ear, I’d mention to them that they should be looking to scoop up any other former SSC’s who let their credentials lapse like Tom.
Oh, and Tom has become an Reactive Training Systems believer since I read those reviews back in the summer of 2015.
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The SSC credential means a lot to me still. It means the person is qualified to coach the barbell lifts safely and efficiently, regardless of body type, injuries, or other physical differences, using the Starting Strength method.
From the SSOC site: “Remember that “Starting Strength” is both a method of performing the basic barbell movements correctly, as well as a linear progression for novice lifters.”
Practical Programming isn’t named “Starting Strength” programming for a reason. As Izzy pointed out in the E&P thread on the SS forums, there’s a really good reason Andy Baker wrote the advanced programs in that book.
I really don’t understand why Rip decided a few months ago that SS is also “voluntary hardship,” “intermediate programming” and “nutrition,” but it’s alienated me and seemingly quite a few others. They aren’t thought leaders in that space. And they’re also totally kidding themselves. Like Izzy, there are multiple SSCs, even SSOCs, that program early intermediates with RPE, because they’ve lost clients who weren’t getting results on the “brutal” programming SS endorses. From all the anecdotal evidence I’ve seen, it seems like the only people that can make good gainzZz on TM and its variants are genetic freaks, who, everyone admits, can make good gainzZz on ANY program! And the irony kills me because the SS brand was supposed to be getting the average middle aged guy strong.
Rip declared the market can decide – I don’t think he’ll like the decision ultimately.
What do you know about Andy’s no longer administrating the programing section of the SS forums? When asking if you know if there is any drama there, I’ll refer to the below quote from Andy’s blog last summer:
#1: 80% of the Time, Train at 80%
This is a good little rule of thumb for program design. This essentially refers to something that we already know which is that the best “strength building” range is between 75-85% of 1RM. And the vast majority of our barbell work should come in this range. Practically speaking this is basically the 4-6 rep range for most of us. I remember giving this piece of advice at a Starting Strength seminar a few years ago to one of the attendees, and I was oh so gracefully corrected by Rip. “What Baker means by 4-6 reps is FIVES!” So yeah, basically sets of 5 reps make a good base of any program, whether its novice, intermediate, or advanced.
Andy seems to be chaifing under TMPHBITEU’s dogmatic approach too. I remember a contemporary discussion that I can’t find now where the conclusion was made by the faithful that TMPHBITEU’s approach is necessary because he is selling a product that has to be simple for the masses to buy it.
Nothing. My conspiracy theory is he’s “siding” with SS for nothing more than business reasons. BBM’s new group programming is in direct competition with his own $27/month service he’s been running for a while. And BBM templates are in direct competition with his own templates. If you actually read almost anything he says, I’d say he disagrees with Rip on this stuff for the most part. I’m not sure BBM gave him much of a choice though.
I definitely think he’s out of running the Programming section though for not toeing the party line, given that:
- Soon after Jordan was taken off the Nutrition section, BBM parted ways, despite the whole explanation of “cycling.”
- Brent Carter is a much better acolyte who so far seems to stick to grinding out LP as long as possible (I’ve seen Andy recommend against this) and doing a TM/4 day split immediately after.
- Andy revamped his website soon after, removing almost all references to the fact he’s a SS coach, and putting much higher priority on his Facebook Group Programming.
I think the Programming section had basically devolved into “help me modify our template,” and Rip wants to own the SS brand, which apparently now includes post novice Programming.
In general I think this whole thing was about Rip reasserting/redefining the SS “Brand” and wanting full control of it. Jordan/BBM and Andy were gaining A LOT of influence.
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I think it’s a good time to be strength training- with all the great options out there for us to choose from. I watched Andy’s YouTube videos this weekend and really enjoyed them. I just started an NLP- will be there for the next few weeks, but already am looking at the next step so I can make an informed choice. I really like the Bridge 1.0 but still need to research on RPE. Andy has some good HLM plans that are close to BBM- but I think the nutrition advice here is much better.
i hate to see SS lose good people, but if there serious ideological differences in the intermediate phase- then so be it.
What I’d like to see between BBM, RTS, or Andy is their equivalent to the SSLP. I haven’t researched RTS enough to know if they have one. I think the SSLP is an outstanding program for the beginner.
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I mean, I know what side I’ve chosen.
However, I’m not a Libertarian or an asshole…will this work?
Also just read this month’s newsletter - looks like Tom Campitelli joined BBM? That’s cool.
I think it’s silly to pick “camps” or “cults”. You can get plenty of good info from SS or BBM as their ideology still overlaps more than not. The info from PPST didn’t suddenly become ineffective or obsolete as it’s gotten thousands of trainees strong. BBM is more “new school” in their ideas of intermediate programming is all. Try either method for yourself and see what you like or works best for you. Training should be fun.
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There’s already a novice linear template in the BBM full template package. I wish I had known about it from the beginning, though I don’t think I would have made the decision to follow it over SS simply because of how big SS is. But I feel confident that the BBM NLP template is better, in the sense that it has some thoughtful volume toward the end, with a slight increase in intensity. It is also only 12 weeks, by which point one should be moving on to something else anyway. One of the biggest issues with SSLP is that most everyone comes away from the initial reading of the book with the idea that LP might last for many months, but it seldom lasts for more than 3 for most people. My SSLP was about 12 weeks or slightly less, yet I continued to pound away forever thinking I was being a female cat and NDTFP. I could have moved to the Bridge much sooner and made continued progress, which eventually did happen many months later.
Also, I still respect Rip in a lot of ways. He saved me from multiple training idioms I had bounced between my whole life, including Crossfit, Nautilus-style circuits, Weider/Olympia routines, whatever. That said, watching his old interview/platform coaching versus the stuff he’s done in the last few years, it’s obvious his fuse is much shorter, and he just generally gets annoyed quicker by everything. He’s probably just tired of being asked the same questions over and over, which I get. He actually called me a moron once for asking what I thought was a very simple and sincere question. I realized at that moment that there was little else I could learn from him, and it had little to do with his knowledge.
Yes I saw that too. What’s up with that?? I thought Tom was like the Hagen to Rips’ Corleone…
BBM could have been the perfect solutions for post-novice training for SS. I personally don’t think Practical Programming is as well-written as SS, and the Intermediate section is just a hot mess without specific guidance on what programming options are suited for what purposes. Maybe intermediate training IS highly customized for different individuals, and the book just serves as fruit for thoughts. The issue is, the general public loves to be spoon fed. NLP is easy and simple with strict rules to follow to be effective. Intermediate isn’t but people still want relatively clearer guidance and training path. SS wants to keep serving these people with a consistent brand image of “effective minimum dose”. It would be an easier product to sell. BBM is not offering that because it is not an optimal approach for competitive trainees or athletes. This is why BBM will not likely become a “cult” like SS per se. There are training principles, but there are no one-size-fits-all rules or routines. The nuances that Jordan advocates and truly exist in advanced training are not as easy to sell. There are extremely bright people that encourage discussions and avoid absolutes in BBM, but there are no characters like Rip that creates religious following. Alan Thrall with his YouTube channel is their best outlet of content to attract attention at the moment in my opinion. This website and BBM Youtube/Podcast have a lot room to improve. I do look forward to Tom’s contribution to this team. He has always been a calm and reasonable voice in SS, instilling trust easily.
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[quote=“protectedbywookies, post:19, topic:1154, username:protectedbywookies”]
This website and BBM Youtube/Podcast have a lot room to improve.
[/quote]This x1000. The content itself, in terms of information, is good. But it is very disjointed at times. Errors/typos and such leave room for improvement. My take on this, as someone who really doesn’t know, is that Jordan does most of this stuff, and while he’s plenty talented to do a great job at it, he likely just has his plate very full being a doc, travelling for these seminars, doing online coaching, etc. Too many pans in the fire while the business grows. But that’s typical for a business in it’s early years, and I feel like this will get better over time. The content makes it all worth it, at least for me.
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