Ok, cool, I think the added volume and exposure to conventional pulling will help like you suspect. I will say that you can probably expect your e1rm to decrease slightly simply because the intensity is lower with the hypertrophy template, that’s especially true running it back to back.
As far as judging a strength athlete’s performance and their form during a 1rm, we can expect some mechanical inefficiencies and deviations with really heavy weight and because of that they don’t really showcase what’s going on with the lifter as far as their pulling habits.
I tried to watch your videos, but they all cut out right before you pull. What I really care about for you at this point is what your sub maximal sets and reps look like, though I’m more than happy to take a look at your singles as they will be telling of things on some level.
Got them fixed that was weird I edited them to take out the extra stuff and instead of playing the edits it played from the beginning. I checked them all should be good now appreciate the help.
The hypertrophy template isn’t that different on the main lifts the accessories are different and obviously the myroreps but so far the nice thing is nice squat or bench has seen any decrease.
@Lockup , the good thing is your anthropometry is normal (i.e. your hips are below your shoulders at setup.) I don’t see anything wrong with your pull other than setting your back tighter. That said, you just need to get stronger. That will come with volume. There are a lot of different approaches you can take. 1@8, 4x5x75% once per week with 4x12@8 for RDLs on a second day would be a good place to start. You could follow that up with 1@8, 3x4@80%. If that doesn’t work, then add an additional set to your drop sets (e.g. 5x5@75%). Eventually, it will work.
Appreciate it. How would you suggest getting the back tighter? Honestly I feel like I’ve been doing the volume thing for a while with little to no improvement. I used to do touch and go on multiples but switched about a year ago to a reset.
Its good to onow now at least there isn’t a major flaw in form it’s just been very frustrating.
My pleasure. The good news is these aren’t horrible, they’re smooth pulls and you’re strong. You do have a couple habits that are taking away from your mechanical efficiency though and I think if you get them tightened up your pulls will feel a lot better. Again, these are singles, so it’s natural to have some exaggerated deviation.
You have a tendency to start with your hips too low and you can actually see your hips shoot up right before you break the bar off the ground. As you drop your hips down, you push the bar forward with your shins. As a result, you don’t start in a great position and the bar may in fact be forward of mid foot. You also have a tendency to lift your chest a bit early at the top in your heavier singles (though that’s expected at some level) and you pull with bent arms and sort of curl the weight up. Having that extra moment arm can make a pull harder. In my experience, raising chest early and pulling with bent arms are artifacts of starting too far forward, which you seem to be. Finally, with your lockout, no need to rock far back like that, just need to stand up straight and as soon as you hit that, unless you plan on competing, you’re pull is done and you can lower the weight.
tl;dr: you don’t start off in a great position and end up compensating for it later on, all things that make pulling harder than it needs to be.
So, having said all that, I would cue yourself to:
A.) “don’t move the bar”. Don’t move it during your set up. Bring your shins to the bar, and that’s where you pull from. As long as the bar is over mid-foot, you’re golden.
B.) “stay out over the bar”. Stay out over the bar longer than you think you need to. The bar is going to feel closer to your shins and farther away from your shoulders than how it feels now. Once you pass your knees, stand up tall.
C.) “straight arms”. Your arms are merely cables, your hands only hooks. As long as you don’t let go of the bar, you’re good
D.) “stand up tall”. This is for your lockout. Just think about standing up tall, and you will lock out.
Ideally, I would like to see you:
1.) quickly get into position, bring your shins to the bar over mid foot, take a deep breath and like heltonjj says, squeeze your back. HARD. (If it helps, think about raising your chest and your ass. whatever you do, don’t move the bar).
2.) squeeze your shoulders down and back AS you squeeze your back tight. This is a hard one to communicate without being there in person.
How you do this: stand up, and think about moving your shoulders down into your pockets. Don’t squeeze them back behind you, don’t squeeze them forward, just down. The opposite of a shrug. You do that at the bottom of the pull and i guarantee pulling will feel significantly better.
3.) As soon as all this comes together, pull.
Lot’s of cues, lot’s of stuff to think about… I would pick one or two and just nail them. Once you feel comfortable, pick one or two more and nail those down, etc. They will feel strange. You may see a decrease in your pulling strength as you learn them, be not afraid. They will come and you will lift more.
Having said all of this… there really isn’t anything egregious going on with your pulls and I think if you work on these things, you’ll forget about wanting sumo. Make your pulls the best they can be and they will reward you for sure.
That hip thing is always a problem and I have tried to fix that forever but at heavier weights it always happens. I checked the videos and can see on both heavier lifts the bar roll a bit as it comes up because of the angle of my shins but on the 310 lift that doesn’t look like it happens but my hips also stay in place better. It didn’t look like it moved during setup but moved right after the pull started. Regardless like you said I am leaning forward as I pull. I don’t complete but I might so I lift like I am competing but I don’t need to lean back like that.
tl;dr: you don’t start off in a great position and end up compensating for it later on, all things that make pulling harder than it needs to be.
So, having said all that, I would cue yourself to:
A.) “don’t move the bar”. Don’t move it during your set up. Bring your shins to the bar, and that’s where you pull from. As long as the bar is over mid-foot, you’re golden.
B.) “stay out over the bar”. Stay out over the bar longer than you think you need to. The bar is going to be closer to your shins and farther away from your shoulders than how it feels now. Once you pass your knees, stand up tall.
C.) “straight arms”. Your arms are merely cables, your hands only hooks. As long as you don’t let go of the bar, you’re good
D.) “stand up tall”. This is for your lockout. Just think about standing up tall, and you will lock out.
So B confuses me a bit. Are you talking about lifting the chest early? If you stay out over the bar doesn’t that kind of make like a SDL? What do you suggest on trying to keep the hips down or al least what do you think is causing my hips to start low? Too close or far away from the bar?
Ideally, I would like to see you:
1.) quickly get into position, bring your shins to the bar over mid foot, take a deep breath and like heltonjj says, squeeze your back. HARD. (If it helps, think about raising your chest and your ass. whatever you do, don’t move the bar).
2.) squeeze your shoulders down and back AS you squeeze your back tight. This is a hard one to communicate without being there in person.
How you do this: stand up, and think about moving your shoulders down into your pockets. Don’t squeeze them back behind you, don’t squeeze them forward, just down. The opposite of a shrug. You do that at the bottom of the pull and i guarantee pulling will feel significantly better.
3.) As soon as all this comes together, pull.
So do you suggest taking the breathe and holding it and setting the back all while standing? I always found it hard to hold my breathe like that. I usually do it once I have a hold of the bar. Same for the back set it before I bend to take the bar? Is it hard not to let it relax then?
Lot’s of cues, lot’s of stuff to think about… I would pick one or two and just nail them. Once you feel comfortable, pick one or two more and nail those down, etc. They will feel strange. You may see a decrease in your pulling strength as you learn them, be not afraid. They will come and you will lift more.
Having said all of this… there really isn’t anything egregious going on with your pulls and I think if you work on these things, you’ll forget about wanting sumo. Make your pulls the best they can be and they will reward you for sure.
Well at least that is good to know. My deadlift moved up pretty quickly considering I had never done them before about three years ago but then it hit 375lb and its pretty well been stuck there ever since really annoying. Thanks for the help appreciate it.
On the up side completely off topic of deadlifts this is my last week of the hypertrophy template so the last week I like to push the singles and don’t worry so much about @8 to see where I am at. Today was squat and OHP. I got two PRs both with some left in the tank. I pushed 380lbs on squat and I might have gotten 400lbs. That was a 10PR from a long time ago and I pushed 185lb OHP and it felt so good I got greedy and decided to try and check a goal box. Next lift I pushed a 200lb OHP. One goal checked.
Yep and your 310 was the best one of the three. I think maybe you have a bit of a psychological thing going on with heavier weights, where a bigger wind up (dropping hips down, then popping up in sort of an “Eddie hall” type deadlift) helps you get in the zone. What do you think?
While it’s super super common, it’s actually keeping you from what would be a higher level of performance and mechanical efficiency. Starting every single pull, no matter how heavy, from the most efficient starting position will help you lift more in the long run. Easier said than done as you know. The only way to get better is to cue yourself, hammer it out and think about it during your warm ups and top set(s). The weight will go down in the short term while your body re-learns how to pull the heavy stuff.
Basically what I mean is: because you start the the pull with the bar pushed forward, you end up having to compensate for it by raising your chest more than you should need to. This happens before you get to, and right around your knees. Your body is attempting to get the weight back from being too far forward. Lifting the chest early accomplishes that, but at the cost of mechanical efficiency.
Staying out over the bar longer, when you start the pull from the most mechanically advantageous position, might feel like you’re doing an SLD. But fear not, you won’t be. You’ll be pulling with mechanical efficiency. The back should hardly move at all until you get past your knees. That’s why I cue you to stay out over the bar longer and use that back as a proper leaver at the right time. Trust me, if you do this, your pulls will feel so much better.
Im not sure why you drop your hips other than habit, but mechanically speaking, your hips are dropping too low because you’re bending your knees to much during your set up. The result is you push the bar away from you with your shins and your hips are too low. I can’t see if the bar is over mid foot when you approach the bar, but I’m guessing it is because as soon as your shins push the bar away, you have all the symptoms of pulling too far forward. As long as you’ve got 1-2” between the bar and your shin when you approach the bar, you’re good.
So, for you, as soon as your shins touch the bar, stop. The cue is “don’t move the bar”. No matter how weird it may feel. Then, set your back. At that point you’re in perfect position.
Sorry, I think my description on how to tuck your shoulders down was confusing. I just meant, in order to practice, stand up and try first before you use it in your pull. You are absolutely right, you take your breath after you’ve got hold of the bar. Sorry for being confusing with that. Grab hold of the bar, bring your shins to the bar without moving it, take a deep breath like you do, then set your back and shoulders hard, and pull.
Everyone has their own pulling style, I don’t mean to presume to tell you to change it… but If you’ve ever watched Austen Baraki pull… there’s some inspiration there you might be able to glean for your benefit. I’m not suggesting you pull like him, but he does an amazing job getting down into position quickly and pulling, nothing extra, no time wasted, no bs (not suggesting you do), just wham bam pull. Adopting some of that will help your pulls.
Hey man I know. I have been there. It friggen sucks. In fact, I’ve had some similar issues as yourself. Leah was my coach once upon a time and she helped me be a better puller using some similar cues and coaching (though she’s amazing, so no comparison lol). But I really do think if you fix some of this stuff and stick it out and pull 400+, no question. Let me know if you have any other questions, happy to help. If you’re following BBM templates you’re in good hands. It’ll come
Thanks for the help and yes I have watched Austin’s pulls and his form is textbook and pretty amazing.
On the knee bend I was wondering if this could be the issue. I think I do setup midfoot but one of the things I feel like I am doing is when I bend over to get the bar I shift back so that my feet stay put but my shins do drift back farther than an inch or two. This would be from trying to keep my legs pretty straight but a lack of mobility of my hamstrings causes my shins to shift back. Do you think that is why I bend my knees to much?
Should I just bend my knees a little and try and keep the shins an inch away from the bar or should I set up closer to the bar.
This is one of the reasons I thought about switching to Sumo the setup just seems easier.
I don’t think your hamstring mobility is why you bend your knees more than you should, but I do think that maybe the discomfort of stretching your hamstrings into position is something you subconsciously avoid because it feels crappy. And, truthfully it’s supposed to feel crappy until you get used to it. The more you practice, just like anything else, the easier and less crappy it will be for you to get into position.
As long as you keep setting up mid-foot, bring your shins to the bar without moving the barbell. The exact moment your shins touch the bar, STOP. Like red light/green light. Then, set your back and pull. If you can do this, there’s a strong possibility the rest of the pulling issues will actually go away on their own. I say try it and see what happens. Sumo will always be in your back pocket. What’s true also is that learning to pull sumo will take time, you’ll lose some strength in the process.
Great thanks I’ll try to give this stuff a shot later this week. Maybe I’ll hold off and do another round of hypertrophy and try to fix this.
just out of curiosity if I decided to get a little coaching do you happen to know roughly what that runs? I assume it’s by session but not sure how that works.
I think that’s more than reasonable. It will feel weird at first, but don’t be put off.
I don’t anymore, but all that info is on here. Coaching was month to month when I did it. If you go to the menu and select “coaching” you can get a quote. BBM also does nutrition consultation and I think you can still get both that and coaching for a bundle-price. I think coaching is a great idea and would highly recommend it.
Not to take anything away from BBM but do you think in person coaching would work better or not. I am not looking to compete and not sure, I need all the programing and stuff. Even if I do decide to, I doubt it will be a big deal. I just want to fix some issues I may have and keep getting stronger. I was just thinking online might be a bit harder to fix things than in person. I just wasn’t; sure what stuff like that usually cost.
Yeah I mean I think it just kind of depends on what you need. In your case, I would recommend making a good effort to work out the kinks in your pulls first, then if that doesn’t work, reaching out to a coach. Reaching out to a coach makes the process much faster and less error-prone when fixing movement issues, and in person is always better than online, but I don’t know if you live near a BBM coach or if an online BBM coach would just look at form checks on the regular for your pulls. You might ask in the “training” section of the forum.
That being said, if your goal is to get stronger and you can afford BBM online coaching: it is completely worth it. The coaches are great, there will be no holes in your game and you’ll get much stronger much more quickly.
However, if you need/want coaching just for your pulls and all else fails, you may be able to get away with hiring an SS coach to do a session a week with you just so you can work on your pulls.
ok cool well we will see what happens. I may check out the prices of the BBM coaching. I have never really had anything formal so it might be worth it.
It may be worth it. I live in London, UK, and I am lucky that there is an SSC here. One SSC. He has told me that many have come from continental Europe including Scandinavia, and some as far as from South Africa to see him and get form checks. If your technique is a real sticking point for you, it may be worth the drive. Anyway, with traffic it can take between 45 minutes and an hour for me to drive to see the SSC. 1.5 hours is not so much.