Jordan et al,
Many thanks for the work you all do here. Long time reader and follower. I have a question about your programming templates and my unique response to them.
The stats:
Non-competitive lifter. Male, 5’11” 207# Age 49. Been training consistently for 13 years, the longest break I’ve taken was 2 weeks (once for a trip to Europe and once for surgery). Other than, that, I typically don’t miss training days.
Best lifts over the years:
LBBS 515 @ 8 (weighed around 228 then)
LBBS with light reverse bands 600 x 3 @ 9 (bands were used in place of wraps, weighed around 220 then)
SSB Squat 550 @10.5 (I almost died-- weighed around 220 then)
Deadlift 635 @ 7 (weighed around 228 then)
Bench 275 @ 8 (hadn’t trained this consistently due to long term shoulder issues, which I have learned to work/program around)
OHP 225 @ 10
Those past strength levels aren’t there yet, due to a multitude of reasons (past injuries, not finding the right programming, etc) that I am working to address. I am still good for a 600ish pull, 420ish squat, 255 Bench.
My personal observations over the last several years are:
From a strength perspective, training 4 days a week yields no benefit for me vs. 3 days a week (and I have trained 4 days a week for a number of years).
Squatting twice a week (a main work day and a lighter day work better than 2 main squat days)
Pulling twice a week doesn’t yield any positive results (though mid shin rack/block pulls or a lighter second day with bands, or RDLs as long as volume is managed appropriately doesn’t detract from the main lift)
Semi-regular singles work is important to me from a mental and physical perspective.
Development/hypertrophy blocks don’t seem to do much for me and actually, seem to impact progress/strength development.
Sadly, I have found I have never responded well to the programming you guys put out. I ran some of the early Group Programming for PL and have run the Low Fatigue Medium ISF 3 day and 4 day templates. My experience seems similar over the years, 6-8 weeks of decent progress followed by high levels of fatigue, a general feeling of being “beat up” and strength numbers that fall precipitously over the next 3-5 weeks. For what it’s worth, I have had similar experiences with JTS’s pseudo-AI programming as well as other coaches that utilize an RPE based approach with blocks similar to BBM.
With that long bit of detail, I am curious if you have had/coached other lifters with this type of response and if so, what was the solution, if any?
Philosophically, I agree 100% with you guys on training/programming/recovery. The challenge seems to be how to execute those ideas in a way that brings about increased strength. Or, perhaps, I have reached my full potential…and should take up yoga (kidding).
Thank you again for your time and all of the resources y’all put out. Helping us plebes out in the interwebs get and stay healthy!
Thanks for the kind words and the detailed question. I appreciate both!
If I’m understanding correctly, it sounds like you get 6-8 weeks of good progress with programs similar to our group programming competitor’s track and Low Fatigue template, then “crash”, yes?
Generally speaking, I’d say 6-8 weeks is pretty typical with regards to a productive mesocycle length. I’m guessing that the crash doesn’t happen when you’re taking a deload or pivot week, but rather in the middle of a second mesocycle. Does that sound about right?
Just want to make sure we’re on the same page here before I respond.
Jordan, thank you for the response, and correct-ish,
Usually, the last week or two before pivot week, I start feeling a bit fatigued (but it’s manageable). Pivot week feels good, then the first week or 2 of the next mesocycle feels good, but the next week things start feeling bad, work weights need to be lowered, fatigue levels climb outside of the gym, and a slow steady decline happens, to the point that I am “weaker” then prior to starting the program.
So
Week 1-4 feeling great (as should be expected)
Week 5-6 Starting to feel fatigued, slightly sore outside of the gym, work sets/progress still attainable with prescribed RPE, but bar speed may be a touch slower.
Week 7 Pivot, feels good, fatigue seems to dissipate over this week
Week 8 Feels Strong
Week 9 Start feeling fatigued again, beat up, little aches and pains, training doesn’t “feel good”
Week 10 work weights need to be lowered, bar speed is slower, fatigue levels outside of the gym high, quality of sleep impacted
Week 11 work weights need to be lowered again, fatigue still high
Week 12 work weights may still need to be lowered, fatigue still high
My gut tells me that I just don’t need or respond to the amount of prescribed volume of the main lifts. I’ve considered dropping a set or reducing a specific number of reps throughout the programming, but, that is just my intuition talking. I’d be curious about your vast experience coaching and how that plays out with someone weird like me.
I think that the response on weeks 1-4 suggest volume isn’t really a problem, though this response could be an artifact of the previous program’s training effects.
I think weight selection is important with respect to RPE. Weight should go down to preserve bar speed and RPE when performance is down and increased when performance is up.
I would not expect week over week improvements -or even maintenance- in strength routinely. Rather, I would expect to see weights go down 1 week, then up the next, and so on…with the average trendline hopefully going up. I think people will often raise their “floor” of performance too high, wherein the effort subsequently gets too high as a result. To me, this is mostly a result of the idea that heavier is more effective, which is not necessarily the case for strength.
The above alludes to the idea that training fatigue may be getting too high and a single pivot week isn’t enough to bring you back to baseline for the next block.
As far as why the fatigue is too high, I favor too heavy of weight selection over volume given the time course described here. If the volume itself was problematic, I’d expect issues earlier in the programming. Hard to comment on a specific programming approach without knowing the typical setup of the two blocks being described here. Some general heuristics:
Would make meso length more dynamic, e.g. once things start going sideways a bit, pivot. In the example above, would do this after week 5.
Would keep RPE of work sets @ 6-7 for the most part
For fatigue control, would terminate the exercise when RPE > 8, weight needs to go down by > 5% to maintain rep or RPE scheme, or reps go down by 2 to maintain load and RPE.
Would favor exercise selection including at least 1 unilateral exercise for both lower and upper body each. Maybe ~1 machine exercise as well. That’s probably what I’d do to start things off, adjusting from there iteratively.
Jordan,
thank you for the detailed and well-thought-out response! This helps me with a bit of a (fairly big) paradigm shift. Reading between the lines, I might deduce that you suspect there is some overshooting occurring. I do have a tendency to push harder and have been working on that the last few years. I may need to be a little more conservative with selected load/RPE ratings. That being said, I do try very hard to keep things at RPE 6-7 and do my best to avoid @9 or 10 sets, as I have learned these do significantly more damage than good from a fatigue standpoint.
If I may, given the dialogue thus far, do you have a preferred template between the low ISF and medium ISF for a lifter like me?
Thank you again for the response. I can take what you’ve written above and work for the next year or more to apply it to my training.
I would probably favor the low ISF template given the percentages should constrain you. I do suspect some overshooting, though that’s not necessarily a huge problem unless it happens too often or is severe enough to disrupt training. Just my 0.02.
Thank you. You 0.02 is worth a bit more than that. It is valued. I will give the low ISF template another go and work to be a bit more conservative on my RPE ratings while implementing your feedback into my training philosophy.
Thank you again, Jordan. I’ve been reading your stuff for a very long time (all the way back to when you took over the Nutrition forum in the old SS days). It’s been awesome to watch you grow, change and adapt your training and nutrition philosophies over the years as data and information has become more available/changed.
LOL, I remember man. Vividly. One of your first comments to me was that I was “under-trained.” It was true then, it is still true.
Your education has impacted mine. It’s been quite a journey. Pretty cool actually that here we are over a decade later, I’m still training, you’re still doing great things, and we’re both still learning. I will pull 700 someday before I die. I am determined.
Until I come out of my shell and ask another question, be well, sir!