What direction to take nutrition in? Perhaps a bit traumatized from SSLP

Gotta clarify I’m not afraid of putting on weight now for long term progress. In fact, I’d prefer it. I’m just trying to parse out if it really is the best way to do it.

I did Starting Strength a couple years back and shot my weight from 160 to 175lbs while getting a 225lb squat, 135lb bench, and other somewhat unimpressive milestones. Then I gained another 20 pounds after reading the book 4 times because I was entirely convinced I HAD to be doing something wrong, and didn’t put more than 5 extra pounds on any lift. I moved, no accessible gyms around, quit lifting- just did chins and pushups for a while. Now I built a home gym and can finally lift again! I’m doing the GZCLP program and doing short runs 3 times a week. I am 22/Male/5"9.5/160lbs/32 or 33 inch waist depending on when I measure, 13-13.5 inch neck which places my bodyfat in the high teen%s online.

Hopefully that context was just neccessary enough. I’m putting up bad numbers in the weightroom, but no more terrible than when I started my LP before (5th workout I just did 140lb squat for 4 sets of 3, then 1 set of 6 and grinded out 3 sets of 10 @100lb bench). I am cautious about putting on weight again. I care exclusively about long term goals as I know I’ll stay committed now that I have the gym built. With that being said, I’m not sure if I really need the extra calories. Given I’m a novice, for as long as I can add weight to the bar without eating extra calories I am hoping to get some time where I can gain muscle and lose fat simultaenously. If this is bad logic, I’d really appreciate having 2 points clarified:

  1. What bodyfat percentages does calorie partioning tend to start getting worse? I’ve heard Jordan talk about this in a podcast so I’ll assume it’s decently supported with evidence. Many online sources say to get to 10% bodyfat then bulk for optimal calorie partioning. There’s no number to it given by BBM so I lack a source I trust.

  2. If I am wrong about this and should be bulking now, why? I hear talk of not getting the most out of novice gains, is there “something to be lost?” Even if I can get to a 225lb squat again in 6 weeks by eating at a calorie surplus, isn’t it true that if I just take a little while longer to get there while cutting I’m still in a “novice phase” when my lifts are lower? Like, I won’t arbitrarily become an intermediate on a 185lp squat, because I could just start eating once it stalls and get the same results? Right?

So why not just cut lightly until my lifts stall and then swap to a surplus? Wouldn’t that achieve the same results strength wise while keeping bodyfat lower, which saves time cutting in the future?

Sorry if this has been answered but I looked around quite a bit and couldn’t find much. I really appreciate any input or clarification. Also if any folks at BBM think the GZCLP program isn’t optimal for a novice I’d be happy to swap to something else.

FastQ,

Thanks for the post and sorry for your previous experience.

  1. We don’t have a firm cut-off as there are other more important determinants, e.g. genetics, recent weight change history, current nutrition status, and training. I would not recommend dieting to 10% BF for “optimal” partitioning- that’s completely made up and we have data that individuals with 15%+ BF can have excellent nutrient partitioning. I think you’d be fine to gain weight slowly over time provided you’re training.

  2. I don’t think you’re really a novice given your training history, but rather you had some time off. I would run our Beginner Template (2nd and 3rd phases) if I had a choice.
    Just think, your squat was only 60lbs off of Baraki’s when he finished SSLP.

I think you could gain weight or los weight- your choice based on preferences. That said, you could clearly benefit from some more muscle and appropriate programming to see the improvements you need.

I just realized I was “commenting” this instead of replying. My bad:

I really appreciate the reply Jordan. It’s really interesting that you’d consider me not a novice despite how silly bad my lifts are. I am still considered a novice for training purposes though, I would assume, being able to put weight on the bar in a linear fashion? (Even if I wasn’t able to do that for very long when I was 19 and eating 6,000 calories a day)

How about my assumption of running an LP for as long as possible at a calorie deficit then only adding calories once one stalls being the optimal way to go about things? I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s NOT the best way, I just can’t see why it wouldn’t be with my current understanding of training and nutrition.

I don’t think it’s useful to categorize people as novices really, as it isn’t a well-defined term outside of one niche in the fitness community. Furthermore, using that term to manage your training and nutrition leads to some potentially zany (Austin’s middle name) decisions, e.g. continue to reset ad infinitum and eat 6000 calories per day.

I just think you’ve demonstrated over and over again that you don’t respond well to that program and I’m not sure why you want to return to it.

How about my assumption of running an LP for as long as possible at a calorie deficit then only adding calories once one stalls being the optimal way to go about things?

Why would this be optimal? Adding calories doesn’t add strength reliably in the short term. While adding LBM in the long term does increase strength potential, if the programming is inappropriate it won’t matter.

To clarify I wasn’t talking about going back on SSLP specifically, but generally a linear progression to more quickly realize strength gains as I’m weak again. Also, I’m not sure if I didn’t respond well to SSLP. At the beginning my lifts went up quickly and while I gained weight it wasn’t unreasonable given the speed of strength increase. What really left the sour taste in my mouth was adding 20lbs of fat with zero strength gains because of the mantra that I was basically not using correct form/YNDTP/Not eating enough. I even saw an SS coach because I was so convinced it had to be form after gaining all the fat.

The idea that it would be optimal to add calories only once I stall is based off the idea that I CAN gain LBM in a calorie deficit, by virtue of being currently untrained in a lot of lifts that use a lot of muscle mass. Anecdotally, I’ve lost a pound or two in the past 3 weeks while looking more than that leaner. My idea is that someone in my position could reach a certain point of progression (even LBM?) on a deficit just by being untrained, then recognize the rest of their newbie gains with a caloric increase.

[quote=“FastQ, post:5, topic:6014, username:FastQ”]
To clarify I wasn’t talking about going back on SSLP specifically, but generally a linear progression to more quickly realize strength gains as I’m weak again./QUOTE]

Not really. Linear progression is a type of periodization model that doesn’t necessarily represent the fastest way to add weight to the bar or greatest strength gains per unit time either.

FastQ;n38978:
Also, I’m not sure if I didn’t respond well to SSLP. At the beginning my lifts went up quickly and while I gained weight it wasn’t unreasonable given the speed of strength increase. What really left the sour taste in my mouth was adding 20lbs of fat with zero strength gains because of the mantra that I was basically not using correct form/YNDTP/Not eating enough. I even saw an SS coach because I was so convinced it had to be form after gaining all the fat…

I would consider a 20lb weight gain with minimal muscle and strength improvements evidence that you didn’t respond well to the program.

If someone needs to lose weight and has good programming, one can certainly gain a bit (though not a lot) of LBM while in a deficit and strength can improve regardless. That said, if the program is inappropriate for the individual, no amount of calorie increase is going to work.

Since you’re not overweight and you want to gain muscle, I would not advise a deficit at this time.

[quote=“Jordan Feigenbaum, post:6, topic:6014, username:Jordan_Feigenbaum”]

FastQ;n38978:
To clarify I wasn’t talking about going back on SSLP specifically, but generally a linear progression to more quickly realize strength gains as I’m weak again./QUOTE]

Not really. Linear progression is a type of periodization model that doesn’t necessarily represent the fastest way to add weight to the bar or greatest strength gains per unit time either.

I would consider a 20lb weight gain with minimal muscle and strength improvements evidence that you didn’t respond well to the program.

If someone needs to lose weight and has good programming, one can certainly gain a bit (though not a lot) of LBM while in a deficit and strength can improve regardless. That said, if the program is inappropriate for the individual, no amount of calorie increase is going to work.

Since you’re not overweight and you want to gain muscle, I would not advise a deficit at this time.

Ok, a surplus it is. I’ll aim for a big kilo or a month until I get a bit on the uncomfortably heavy side, 6 months or so. I’ll keep measurements of my waist and see where I’m at. I’ll update in a few months I’m sure, as much as I’d like to think with some new perspective and planning it’ll be smooth sailing, I suspect I’m a bit of a hardgainer. I’ll add volume more liberally, given what I’ve heard regarding volume recommendations in response to a stall in training from BBM. Wish me good luck and sense.

I’m really glad I stumbled upon the new and improved BBM that isn’t held accountable by SS. I definitely had a hard time reconciling the fact EVERYONE recommended reading starting strength due to the pretty wonderful tips on form, yet some criticized the program and most criticized the diet. I definitely fell into the trap of following that book to the T, even when a Starting Strength coach basically told me a lot of it was BS/hyperbole. I feel more empowered to change training/nutrition variables when progress stalls and find what works for me, and I’m hopeful I’ll finally feel strong in the coming years.

Awesome man! Let us know how it goes for you :slight_smile: