Can training make you feel mentally tired?

Hello Dr. Feigenbaum and Dr. Baraki,

Imagine if someone misgauges RPE in their training, using too much intensity on high volume days. For example they have four sets of bench, and their lifts feel like RPE 9 when they should be 8. And subsequently they feel more mentally fatigued than usual the following few days. Is it at all possible this was due to mechanical stress of training?

Also, as we know untrained individuals can get sore when they start to train. Do you have any idea as to why when someone who trains often stops training they get sore?

Thank you

Yes, training can make you feel tired. I kind of feel silly writing that, to be honest.

The mechanisms of fatigue are, not surprisingly, complex. We’ve discussed it on the forums here before, so I’d search for that - as well as the open access article titled “Translating Fatigue to Human Performance”.

And the soreness phenomenon you’re describing has to do with the protective effects of the Repeated Bout Effect.

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Thanks for the fast response.

I know training can make you feel physically tired, but I wasn’t sure about feeling mentally tired. I originally thought so, but after reading another forum post I was confused, thanks for clarifying.

I’m 22 years old, male, 6’0 215 pounds and have been physically active my whole life.

No matter what program I’m doing whether it is a template or group programming every so often I seem to really wear myself down to where I can barley wake up in the morning, and barley keep my eyes open during the day, and have trouble concentrating etc.

I’ve been to the doctor for this before and they can be 100% sure all test results are fine.

I’ve eliminated alcohol from my life so thats not an issue. I use templates/group programming so my training stress is correct. I eat 215 grams of protein a day and sleep enough usually. I have no other unusual stresses in life. So I have no clue what I am doing wrong and what could be causing this?

I can’t afford to have training negatively affect my work life to where I am so mentally fatigued I cannot perform. Do you know any way that I can avoid wearing myself down like this, or perhaps what could be the culprit?

I’ve eliminated every single issue that could cause this (alcohol, lack of sleep, diet, lack of right training stress, etc.) and I still seem to get myself into these 1-2 week cycles of feeling insanely tired and beat down. The only other thing I can imagine is that I’m not gauging RPE correctly, and I’m doing too high of intensity. If you believe that to be a possible cause, what coaching cue do you recommend for people like that?

*Also, if someone is prescribed to do say four sets at RPE 8, and after two sets they feel pretty tired but could definitely do another two, should they just stop there? Or lower the weight and finish the next two? I find it’s really difficult to tell what’s the appropriate weight to use when following a template. I’ve noticed that in my “low stress” weeks I do really well even with high intensity but when I hit the “mod stress” and “high stress” weeks I really get beat down.

You could be overshooting, sure. There’s no “coaching cue” for this, though you may benefit from having some other eyes on your lifts to see whether it looks like you truly have 2 left in the tank for an RPE 8, for example.

*Also, if someone is prescribed to do say four sets at RPE 8, and after two sets they feel pretty tired but could definitely do another two, should they just stop there? Or lower the weight and finish the next two? I find it’s really difficult to tell what’s the appropriate weight to use when following a template. I’ve noticed that in my “low stress” weeks I do really well even with high intensity but when I hit the “mod stress” and “high stress” weeks I really get beat down.

RPE has nothing to do with whether you feel “pretty tired”. It has to do with (approximately) how many reps you have left in the tank at the end of the set. If your @8 sets are more like @9.5, then yes, the load is heavier than intended for that programming approach.

The other thing to consider is whether you have sleep apnea, which causes poor sleep quality and people to feel unrested in the morning.

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Thanks for the response.

I am going to look into the sleep apnea problem if I can’t get some discipline with my sleep schedule.

The sleep issue does bring up something interesting that I’ve heard you talk about before. You mentioned a while back while you were going through the demanding medical school/ residency program that auto regulation and RPE kept you from wearing yourself down too much - but I have a question about that:

What if someone was about to train and they already feel somewhat mentally/ physically fatigued (a resident student for example). They are supposed to do four sets of bench at RPE 8. After the first set, they DEFINITELY could have done two more reps, but it would have been an excruciating effort for them to do that. However, they did follow the RPE definition of level 8 which is “Can DEFINITELY do two more reps”. These sets feel incredibly taxing despite following the RPE definition. Now after doing those four sets, and finishing their training day, they feel completely wiped out for the next few days despite following the program perfectly because they were already fatigued and those four sets were just a little too much intensity and volume for them - is that an RPE issue?

When you’re in lack of sleep situations (like being a resident) does that change how you gauge RPE?

Do you ever come across people that gauge RPE wrong because of the way they think when they lift. For example, if someone is trying to impress the ladies they might think they have more in the tank then they actually do. And someone who has been awake for 48 hours straight might think they have less than they do. Do you see the confusion - how do you mentally judge RPE the same way each session? Is it a mistake to look at last weeks weight too much, and to gauge it by that?

I imagine the guy listening to heavy metal music, pretending he is lifting on TV or something, always rates his RPE lower. Do you personally avoid hyping yourself up like this for this very reason?

The last training session I had before this happened I was in a rush and did four sets of close grip bench with three minutes of rest between each, and they all felt like 9’s or 9.5’s…they should have been 8’s.
Perhaps that coupled with working a lot of overtime played a larger role than I imagined. I feel I accumulate fatigue over a few months and then it suddenly hits me at once. I am starting to think I’m just not that great at gauging RPE, perhaps I’m overestimating what I have left in the tank each set.

Thanks again

What if someone was about to train and they already feel somewhat mentally/ physically fatigued (a resident student for example). They are supposed to do four sets of bench at RPE 8. After the first set, they DEFINITELY could have done two more reps, but it would have been an excruciating effort for them to do that. However, they did follow the RPE definition of level 8 which is “Can DEFINITELY do two more reps”. These sets feel incredibly taxing despite following the RPE definition.

If you truly have 2 solid reps in the tank, the set should not require “excruciating effort” or feel “incredibly taxing”.

Now after doing those four sets, and finishing their training day, they feel completely wiped out for the next few days despite following the program perfectly because they were already fatigued and those four sets were just a little too much intensity and volume for them - is that an RPE issue?

This can happen for a number of reasons. They may have actually overshot the RPEs. They may have been extending rest periods longer and longer in order to continue sets “across” at a given RPE target, which results in excessive fatigue generation. Or they may have other issues from a recovery standpoint - nutrition, sleep quality/quanitity, or even some issues discussed here.

When you’re in lack of sleep situations (like being a resident) does that change how you gauge RPE?

Not really. Though I’m not 100% certain I know what you mean by “change how you gauge RPE”, either.

Do you ever come across people that gauge RPE wrong because of the way they think when they lift. For example, if someone is trying to impress the ladies they might think they have more in the tank then they actually do. And someone who has been awake for 48 hours straight might think they have less than they do. Do you see the confusion - how do you mentally judge RPE the same way each session? Is it a mistake to look at last weeks weight too much, and to gauge it by that?

Yes, this happens. This is why the use of RPE is a skill that requires practice, but also requires an understanding that perfect accuracy is not necessary for it to be useful. I’d suggest you listen to our podcast with Mike T. on the application of RPE for more discussion on this.

I imagine the guy listening to heavy metal music, pretending he is lifting on TV or something, always rates his RPE lower. Do you personally avoid hyping yourself up like this for this very reason?

We have talked about this a bunch before in the context of stimulant use. Look up the Yerkes-Dodson law.

The last training session I had before this happened I was in a rush and did four sets of close grip bench with three minutes of rest between each, and they all felt like 9’s or 9.5’s…they should have been 8’s.
Perhaps that coupled with working a lot of overtime played a larger role than I imagined. I feel I accumulate fatigue over a few months and then it suddenly hits me at once. I am starting to think I’m just not that great at gauging RPE, perhaps I’m overestimating what I have left in the tank each set.

If you were programmed @8s and you did sets @9.5, then you should have taken some weight off the bar to get the correct dose of stimulus. It’s not surprising you felt badly after that.