I know you both (Dr. Baraki and Dr. Feigenbaum) don’t see overtraining symptoms as a big deal because you two never get to that point because you auto-regulate volume and use RPE.
However, what should someone do who hasn’t got to the point where they use those tools. What if they are running SS and have the following symptoms as stated on page 20 of Practical Programming for overtraining:
compromised performance
disturbed sleep
increased chronic pain
abnormal mood swings
chronic elevated heart rate
depressed appetite
weight loss
other physical and mental abnormalities.
Is there anything someone can do to overcome these uncomfortable symptoms?
Are these benign symptoms that one can ignore?
What if someone on SS doesn’t have a coach, and is really grinding out each workout, adding 5 pounds every 48 -72 hours trying to reach 400 pound squat on SS, etc. and they really run themselves into the ground to where they are a nervous wreck, can’t sleep, and feel horrible? It’s kind of difficult to know when you’re overdoing it until you have awful symptoms as listed above – do you have any tricks to avoid getting this far?
Is there anything someone can do to overcome these uncomfortable symptoms?
Yes. See below.
Are these benign symptoms that one can ignore?
Define “benign”.
What if someone on SS doesn’t have a coach, and is really grinding out each workout, adding 5 pounds every 48 -72 hours trying to reach 400 pound squat on SS, etc. and they really run themselves into the ground to where they are a nervous wreck, can’t sleep, and feel horrible? It’s kind of difficult to know when you’re overdoing it until you have awful symptoms as listed above – do you have any tricks to avoid getting this far?
Yeah, tricks include getting the hell off the LP onto a more sustainable long-term training approach. Jesus.
Benign meaning you’re not in any serious danger that would require a physician’s care.
What would you recommend someone who has reached end of LP with their press, bench, deadlift, but there squat could go on for another month or two? Would you just have them start the bridge anyways?
Yes. The reason I say their squat could go on longer was because they have previously reached 400 pounds on the advanced novice program stated described in PP.
If someone has awful symptoms stated above, should they just completely stop training until they feel better or just do warm ups, or deload 10% and cut volume in half?
Right. So it depends on how much getting this 400 squat NOW matters to the person. In other words – is it worth continued and/or worsening symptoms? Or would they be ok with it perhaps taking a bit longer in order to not experience those symptoms.
I’m personally a fan of sustainable, long-term training approaches, rather than the idea of I must continuously PR as soon as possible for as long as possible, otherwise it’s “suboptimal” and “inefficient”. What you have described is decidedly not a sustainable approach, for obvious reasons.
I would not recommend someone stop training altogether. I would recommend a significant, temporary reduction in both intensity and volume for that individual. As their symptoms resolve, I would gradually increase training volume before adding a bunch of intensity back in.
Has there ever been a time for you, perhaps when you first started training, when you really wore yourself into the ground and felt super tired, inflamed, headache, stressed, etc.?
I guess when someone reaches this point there is no magic potion or trick to get over it aside from toughing it out and over time they’ll recover from it.
I think everyone who has been training for a long enough period of time has acquired too much fatigue that has been non productive. Less training is unlikely to be the answer, though a washout period or stimuli change may be necessary.
I’m not sure what feeling inflamed is, but if it’s sore- then sure. I think I’ve been tired, sore, and irritable for like a decade now.
Would you suggest the person listed above go ahead and start the bridge or cut back intensity/volume and do the SS model for a few more weeks before starting the bridge?
What Dr. Baraki said about long term, yet perhaps slower improvement, makes a lot more sense then the mindset I adopted that you should run SS model as long as possible. I got this from hearing Rip talk all the time about how many people wrongly start Intermediate training when they are still a Novice, and can make a lot more improvement using SS until it literally doesn’t work anymore.
This makes sense seeing you’re a competitive powerlifter; however, does your mood ever and overall perceived quality of life suffer? You seem to be in an great mood in your IG live streams, etc. I imagine that auto regulation volume and using RPE keeps you from ever wearing yourself into the ground to where you feel completely awful.
I’m curious about why do we have to change something in our training from time to time to make our body sensitive to new/old stimulas, like change from sets of 5s to sets of 4s, then come back to sets of 5s.
What stops us from adding more sets of 5s to keep making progress? Or, can we, if we metally strong enough;)?
Depends on the person entirely. There is no one answer here.
Sometimes my mood is poor and it is unrelated to my lifting, but it can affect my lifting.
RPE is hard. Very hard. But training yourself into the ground represents a misunderstanding and misapplication of programming variables. You can do this on an RPE based program too, of course.
One of the most confusing things is this: if someone runs themselves into the ground on LP which makes them feel bad/tired and they no longer make progress, how does adding an intermediate program which has more work and complexity stimulate progress if the beginner novice program is too much for them?
But at the same time if someone at end of LP is exhausted and overtrained/ under recovered and they take time off they will detrain…
If you personally were to start LP right now at 400 pounds and work your way up as long as you could go, would you be really run down/overtrained or do you require more stimulus? I can’t imagine anything tougher than LP with heavy weights…
You see, the person who “ran themselves into the ground” on LP was applying the wrong type of stress needed in order to produce a good demonstrable training effect. The intermediate training may be “more training” and even “more stress”, but it’s different stress and if it is appropriate, the results will show themselves readily.
I would derive no training effect from LP, but rather would be relying on previous training development to “perform” on LP. I’d take it up to 455-475 x 5 x 3, which does not represent an improvement in strength from my current levels. The stress level is too low and is further inappropriate to drive strength development in me.
From what I understand you are supposed to do LP until it doesn’t work anymore – does that mean becoming too physically exhausted to keep training or feeling great but not being able to lift the weight anymore?
It’s just an odd situation if someone is physically tired from LP. It’s hard to tell if they need to back off volume/intensity and restart weights on LP or if that’s actually the end of LP for them and they need to start intermediate. The problem is that if someone is already tired then I feel like an intermediate program picking up after LP would do more damage then good because the person isn’t fully recovered and healthy.
LP stops working because the stress is no longer appropriate. It’s hard, it sucks resources away from you, but it’s not enough of the right stress.
It’s not really that odd with the proper framework for understanding.
LP stops working because you’re no longer sensitive to the stimulus that you’ve repeatedly exposed yourself too over months. It’s not suddenly too much or too little, you’re just not sensitive to it. It may be hard, sure, but it’s not insurmountable stress.
Really, someone needs either a deload or washout period to regain sensitivity to the same level of stress. Alternatively, they can change the stress, which is intermediate programming.
Recovery is not the limiting factor for the novice progression and if one does not accept this, their programming for all subsequent levels of trainees will be incorrect.
If I may be allowed, I can at least offer my experiences at the end of LP to Willy_P. I finished my LP after about 3 months at 45 years old. I was squatting 295 for 3 sets of 5. The last set was a grind. Very difficult and I was tired after doing it. I could no longer add weight to the bar each week. So by the way I felt tired you I thought I was still getting plenty of stress. I assumed my issue was recovery (maybe b/c I’m not a spring chicken, right?). So I tried taking more rest days. Didn’t work. I was already doing a mid-week light squat day, which had worked for a couple weeks before I got to 295x3x5. Basically extra rest didn’t let me progress. I tried other things…no results.
I picked up the Bridge ebook, and dropped the intensity immediately as prescribed to get my RPE8 worksets in. I took a few weeks to dial things in. The volume went up during those weeks as I followed the program. I initially felt tired on a whole “different” level. Not MORE tired necessarily, but a different kind of tired. The volume produced a different kind of fatigue, which I subsequently adjusted to with no issues. I made great progress on the Bridge, and then did the Bridge 2.0 and also made great progress. I’ve added a lot more to my squat by using lower intensities.
I didn’t understand it before I did it. I don’t think most people will until they experience it. As the saying goes, experience is still the best teacher.
How does one recognize the right type of stress? Or rather, is there a way to evaluate a program by the fraction of stress it causes to be better and not merely harder?
My interpretation of your explanation of LP training you into the ground without providing enough stress is that the intensity grinds you into the ground but the insufficient volume doesn’t provide enough stimulus to adapt. Is this correct?
Re: your statement quoted above about RPE… how would you still train yourself into the ground using RPE? Would it be a matter of correct intensity (due to autoregulation) but excess volume, or are there other examples?
Finally, from your coaching experience, would you mind giving an example of how you detect this overtraining in a client who’s on an RPE program?
Retrospectively, sure. Looking back at training and using average intensity, exposure count, and/or volume is important to generate good strategies.
While you’re training, we use historical and empirical data to predict the outcome and then see how we do. You can also use RPE, RIR, and/or bar speed,
I do not think you can “train yourself into the ground”, really. You can waste a bunch of energy doing stuff that doesn’t contribute to making you stronger, sure. That can be done multiple different ways with or without RPE.
Usually more volume produces better results provided the intensity is correct. However, doing stuff that is too fatiguing compared to the adaptation it generates is a problem when doing heavy repeats @ RPE 9-10