Is it the general BBM philosophy that a person can still gain strength if they are overweight and not just trying to get “super ripped?” I am 41 years old, 245lbs, 30% bf, and have a 44 inch waist. I definitely need to lose some weight and waist size just for pure health reasons. I am going to continue to try and get stronger but the age-old theory is that you cannot gain strength if you are not in a calorie surplus. But I think I recall Jordan saying that people who are really overweight can still gain strength while cutting. Regardless, I’m cutting until I get to a healthier waist size but I was curious about this.
Hey Man!
If think you may be conflating “gaining strength” with “gaining skeletal muscle mass” here
I don’t think anyone disagrees that a trainee can lose a significant amount of body-weight and get stronger at the same time; their progression will be compromised, but it’s doable, e.g. me 
However, it’s unlikely that a trainee can lose a significant amount of body-weight and gain muscle mass at the same time, unless they are very overweight and very under-trained
Check it out here (around the 5 minute mark): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3KtElTUObc&t=3010s
If we use our agreed definition of strength, that is the ability to produce force against an external resistance, and our agreed strength testing method, that is the amount of weight you can put on the bar and move through the full range of motion, then improvements in technique and neuro-muscular efficiency can result in significant strength gains before muscle mass becomes a limiting factor.
By losing weight you will end up looking more “ripped” just because losing body fat results in improved muscle definition, even if you have lost some amount of muscle mass. Oftentimes people will think they have gained muscle mass while losing weight when in reality they have lost fat and muscle, but they look bigger due to the improved muscle definition.
The oft repeated axiom in BBM is that you can’t gain muscle while in a caloric deficit (BBM speak for losing weight) with the single exception of a very overweight individual who is also very untrained (not you, judging by your log).
Yes, thanks. My main concern is getting to a healthier weight/waist size. I don’t need to be 10% bodyfat, but I just want my waist to be in the 30’s. My second concern is hitting my strength goals (basic 405 squat and 500 deadlift). As for actual muscle size? Meh, it’s cool, but definitely not as important to me as the first two.
My recent experience is that my upper body lifts dropped about 10% when losing 4 inches of waist size in 3 months, but my lower body lifts remained about the same. I understand that this isn’t unusual, and that Press particularly is notorious for being sensitive to weight loss.
I’ve also seen the Doctor’s recommend 34-36" as a good goal girth, but that’s without context yaknow? And it’s often said that at a certain point in training, increases in strength become hypertrophy dependent, making the distinction of muscle vs strength gains during a caloric deficit moot.
Judging by @LeahBBM 's amazing testimony here among others, the BBM crew is superb at balancing strength and nutrition goals such as yours and achieving RESULTS. So if you need the extra guidance, have the wherewithal to follow direction, and pony up, an actual consult is a good resource for that.
They offer single consults? I thought it was monthly programming.
The Doctor’s plates have gotten pretty crowded, but that’s why they’ve taken on staff including a nutrition expert of some sort (10 minutes of searching didn’t dig up where I learned that, and I can’t remember the individual’s quals). I actually got some minor 1 on 1 from Jordan back when he still lived in my neighborhood in 2016.
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They have 3 options right now:
- Personalized programming and/or nutrition. Your lifts and/or diet are reviewed daily (per session). Your programming and/or nutrition is custom. They don’t advertise the cost but the last time I asked for a quote it was pretty similar to SSOC’s costs for the same services (no surprise). The main differences are lifts are evaluated at a one lift per week basis (i.e. this week we focus on the Squat) and your programming/lifts/nutrition aren’t restricted to a single coach, but open to review by the whole BBM team. As the website says you can purchase with 3 or 6 month batches.
- Group programming on Facebook – the service just launched.
- Templates
As for cutting, everyone is affected differently but most people seem to really struggle on the upper body lifts. It’s not even the losing weight that does it. It’s the calorie deficit. The small muscles seem to be hit pretty hard by the glycogen deficits, whereas the bigger muscles for pulls and squats don’t seem to care as much. My personal experience was squats were mostly unaffected, pulls weren’t affected strength wise but they felt like getting hit by a truck, and my upper body lifts tanked IMMEDIATELY. This is all dependent on how strong you already are too, obviously.
Andy Baker has a different take on why weight loss hits the upper body so much harder.
Big Press Rule #1: Don’t lose bodyweight
More so than any other lift, the overhead press is extremely sensitive to changes in your bodyweight. Five to ten pounds of weight gained or lost can affect your progress on the press significantly. When we lose weight, we lose some combination of fat, water, and muscle mass. How much of each depends on the individual and their nutritional plan. A proper nutrition plan can help to minimize muscle loss, but if you try to cut significant amounts of weight you are probably going to lose a little bit of muscle unless you are using anabolics (I am life time drug free as are my clients).
But mainly (on top of the fat that you want to lose) you are going to lose quite a bit of water in and around the muscle cells. A loss of water weight changes leverages around your joints – usually to your detriment when it comes to strength.
This is why many power lifters aim for “The Bloat” prior to a contest. A single (or several) high sodium / high carbohydrate meals can add several pounds of water weight to a lifter in a short period of time. This extra water weight stored in and around the muscle cells creates better leverage around all the joints and will increase your lifts. (Great “bloat” meals include things like McDonalds French Fries or an order of Pancakes and Sausage – remember high carb + high sodium combo).
The more muscle mass you have in a lift (think Squat or Deads) the less a small loss of water weight is going to affect you. But in a Press we aren’t using very much muscle mass to move the barbell (delts and triceps). Even small changes in leverage are very difficult to overcome when you don’t have a lot of muscle mass to make up for it.
Sooooo……if you want to prioritize your Press, don’t try and prioritize weight loss at the same time. Pick which goal is more important to you and get that done first.
Although on a deeper level, for every 100g of glycogen stored in muscle 700g of H20 is stored, making your comment jive with Andy Baker’s take on things in the long run.
My experience cutting 20 lbs and 4" off my waist was a bit different. Presses were the most resilient, in that they varied wildly and unpredictably but often went back up to where they started. Squats and deadlifts would make slow progress and then completely tank (perhaps due in part to overshooting). Then it was slow and steady progress to try to get them out of the hole only to have them tank again.
I think what it boils down to is just keep lifting the same and let RPE take care of the weight on the bar. There’s no getting around the fact that I need to lose some weight (I’m not comfortable having a 44 inch waist). And what else am I going to do, not train?
Some general guidelines pulled from the nutrition forum:
Jordan:
Am I skinny fat?
Maybe. It’s likely that you’re undertrained and under muscled. Do you need to gain weight right now? It depends. If your body fat is > 20% but under 30%, I would aim to maintain weight and do a proper Novice Linear Progression. If you’re > 30% BF, I would recommend training and losing weight. If you’re <20% body fat, you might need to gain weight.
I’ve also seen Jordan reference 40" a few times for waist size that should be in a caloric deficit even for a novice.
I’m not anything resembling an expert but I’ve been told by multiple qualified SSCs that, if nothing else, your pull will likely go up because as you lose your gut you’ll be able to get in a better, more efficient, position.
Almost all doctors, including Jordan and Austin, that I’ve talked to agree with the data out there that >40" waist is tightly correlated with a bunch of negative health outcomes. So I’d agree with Jordan here that your first priority should be getting that waistline down. After you do, you can refocus on your strength goals. Pulling 500 and squatting 405 might take you longer to hit, but from everything I’ve read, probably not nearly as long as you’re worried about, and maybe only as long as the length of your cut.
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This might be in-topic: What body fat % calculator are you guys using?
I know that it’s not really accurate, but still better than nothing.
I think the Navy Calculator is the generally accepted one. Jordan uses it in his questionnaires just to get a general idea of bf %. It claims to be accurate to 1-3%. There’s a few different websites for it, but here’s one I use: http://fitness.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Body-Fat-Navy