Post Novice - not much progress in e1RM

Programming Discussion
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The Short: I have barely improved e1RM since finishing Novice LP over 6-months ago.

The Long: Starting specs: BW: 135lbs , 5’9" , 30yo , marathoner - collegiate distance runner - high school varsity soccer.
Summer 2016, I ran Starting Strength (first interaction with weightlifting) for the Summer and got my Squat/DL up to around 200lbs before running injury and I quit lifting.

Start - December 2017: I unfortunately modified the SS NLP to two times a week while running LSD a couple times a week as well for the first 5 months. Ate as much as I could (didn’t do GOMAD) and in 5-months my specs became the following (before I stopped running and began working out 3-times per week).
End of April 2018.
BW: 160lbs
3x5 Squat: 260
1x5 Deadlift: 285
3x5 Bench: 185
3x5 OHP: 130

Switched to the Texas Method June 11, 2018 - I was pushing through lifts at RPE10 since May I’d say and finally found the Bridge 1.0 and started July 9th, 2018.
July 2nd numbers:
BW: 170
e1RM
Squat: 353 lbs
Deadlift: 353 lbs
Bench: 238 lbs
OHP: 156 lbs

Fast Track: I did Bridge 1.0 into 3-day Hypertrophy 2.0 into Bridge 2.0 into Bridge 3.0 (now in my 7th week).

Current Specs:
BW: 180
e1RM
Squat: 361 lbs
Deadlift: 372 lbs
Bench: 241 lbs
OHP: 168 lbs

I have definitely progressed in technique and learned a ton from BBM, Alan Thrall, and Brian Alsruhe channels. But I am amazed that my lifts have barely gone up in 6-months post-novice. I work extremely hard (potentially too hard), never miss a workout or a set, always go into a workout with the intention of adding weight, video-tape myself and critique my form all the time, almost never skip GPP.

I used to beat myself up that my Deadlift isn’t significantly higher than my Squat, but I’ve recently found out that due to my short limbs and long torso, I don’t need to hold myself to that standard anymore. My work capacity is much greater than it was back in July. This past week I’ve been cutting 40-minutes of cumulative rest time out of my workouts by not resting between warmup sets and only 2-3minutes on working sets — still hitting the same numbers.

Bottom-line, anyone have any clue why the programming hasn’t been working for me?

My suspicion is that I need a 4-day a week program because I feel pretty well recovered and always have a good attitude going into a workout. I know I’m still young to lifting, so I expected a much greater response, especially based on my Novice response while I was NDTP.

My plan moving forward is rerunning the 3-day Hypertrophy plan using Bands/Chains on all the main lifts (to get use to it) and then running Brian Alsruhe’s free conjugate program. Regardless, it feels like the programs I’m running are not giving me enough volume to make an adaption. Add an additional set to each lift?

I’ll figure it out eventually through trial and error, but thanks for anything you consider helpful.

Marty

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Could be that you just don’t make progress that fast. We’re not all genetic freaks, you know. :wink:

My e1RMs during a training cycle do not show my true 1RM potential. Maybe you are in the same situation.
Have you ever tested your true 1RM?

Cutting rest-time between sets is most-probably not going to increase your e1RM. At first it might even decrease it. You will get better at recovering between sets over time. Which in turn gives you the opportunity to add volume to your workout without having to worry about possible time-constraints.

You say you’re well recovered between work-outs. If so, it is an option to add volume (reps, sets or even an extra session) to the program.

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There is a lot to unpack here. I will pick what I see as the big points.

I think you are being a bit hard on yourself and your expectations may need to be reconsidered. You state “I expected a much greater response, especially based on my Novice response while I was NDTP”. From a marathon runner to seriously lifting weights is a huge change in stimulus and you will and did gain at the most rapid rate ever as a novice doing any program (not just SS) so long as you train, eat, sleep hard. Now, things have changed for you. You are now a moderately seasoned trainee and the stimulus you require is now more nuanced.

Regarding your actual weights, it made me recall what Greg Nuckols points out in Objective Strength Stardards: “A score between 50-60% [Ed: of calculated genetic possible maximum lifts in aforementioned article] generally means you’ve put in some serious time under the bar and you’ll turn heads at most gyms, but you still have plenty of room for improvement. Anything below 50% just means you need to keep grinding. Somewhere around 40-50% is where most people will start hitting their first plateaus. When that happens, it’s time to increase training volume and put more focus on proper sleep, stress management, and nutrition.” I didn’t input your numbers, but say max competitive level numbers are circa 650 squat, 700 deadlift, 400 bench, for your weight so you are sitting circa 50 to 60%.

It seems though that you have progressed enough on the same program (Bridge 1, 2, 3 explained below) that you have hit your first serious plateau. Congratulations! You are at a level that many many trainees have never reached. Now you need to really work for the next bit, and the next bit, and the bit after that. The stronger and more advanced you get, the harder and the slower the gains will come. 'Tis the law of diminishing returns. Greg has a series of articles about drug free muscle and strength max potential and one about what weight class is right for you. Interesting as a guide and helps to frame expectations (note I did not say “limit”, I said “frame”). Basically, from where you are now to get to your absolute max (assuming you stick to it and have the genetics) is about 7 to 10 years away. Yup. It is a long road. You can do it.

The thing that stands out to me is that you have run The Bridge three times (with one Hypertrophy break two Bridges ago). You have now stopped responding to that program. You may counter that Bridge 1, 2, and 3 are different, but they are variations of the same program, they are the same style of program, and as such not different enough. It would be a good time to maybe run another Hypertrophy program (4 day?) to focus more on muscle gain and maintaining strength while experiencing another stimulus by way of volume and rep scheme change. Then you could move to the 12 Week Strength program, or HLM, or whatever. You are doing this by considering another program, although not for the reason you think. It is not that BBM programming does not work for you, it is that you need to change the stimulus. You will see results if you move to another program (assuming it is appropriate, I know nothing of the program you mentioned). Even if that other program is sub-par you will respond a bit as the stimulus is different; however, your gains may be limited there as well. Thus starts the danger of program hopping. The Bridge(s) are a lower volume program by their very design as they are a “bridge” from linear progression to something more volume driven; they are stepping stones to the higher volume BBM programs. I also get the sense there may be an issue with the financial outlay of getting the 4 day Hyp, or HLM, or 12WKS, as you are going for a different free program. Another free program is the Greg Nuckols one (I think you have to sign up for his email newsletter on his website). Either way I think a change of programming is warranted, whether it be BBM or not.

There may also be something in a comment you made => “potentially too hard”. Are you over shooting your RPEs? Are you grinding your sets and thus your progress is stalling? Dunno, just positing something for you to consider.

I haven’t considered diet, life stress, etc, as it seemed expectations and programming were the key things in your post.

1 Like
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You still are making progress, just need more stress and training volume. Keep chucking at it and you’ll progress.

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Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

I have not tested my true 1RM yet, so I’m just judging by RPE. Glad to hear I’m on the right track with increasing volume and moving on from the Bridge programming.

The financial issue is exactly why I’m looking at a non-BBM program, along with Brian’s style of programming is very time-efficient (near 60mins via giant sets), whereas BBM notes 2hr minimum for the 12-week strength program.

My diet is okay, I haven’t been losing (or gaining) weight in about 4 months - protein around 200g a day - around 3000 calories. My lovely wife helps me eat pretty well.
Stress is pretty well managed, but sleep can be tough (3rd child under-5 born about 3-months ago). But again, I feel recovered enough to do my workouts with a good attitude. I did have to switch from afternoon 2-hr workouts to morning workouts (5am) about a month ago. I found I had to do much more warmup to lift what I was lifting in the afternoon sessions. So saving 40-mins by not resting allows me to sleep a little longer. I have found that I am more focused on the lifts when I take less rest, even though fatigue can be a factor. I will take full rest when going for a PR on a main lift though.

My goal is to reach my potential and compete in strongman/powerlifting/weightlifting, so God-willing I’ll continue 20+ years to get there (I’m only 30).

Thanks for the Nuckols concept, that’s motivating information and helps me put things in perspective. I definitely have been overshooting my RPE 8s since starting RPE. But that’s the only way I’ve been able to add weight to the bar, by dipping into RPE 9s. I’m trying to work on this habit and be honest with myself. I didn’t think it would be a problem since I wasn’t missing workouts or sets and was still recovering. But judging by my progress, it could be playing a decent role.

2019 goals are to get up to 200lbs BW and squat/deadlift 405+, Press body-weight, Bench 1.5x body weight. We’ll see how reasonable these goals are around mid-year.

Thanks again for your time fellas,
Marty

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No worries. :sunglasses:

There are some on this board who managed the 12WS in 75 minutes. It all comes down no rest between wramups and a strict 3 minute rest between working sets on the competition lifts (i.e. squat, press, deadlift, bench press with belt). This could also be tweaked with a strict 2 minute rest between all other training sets (i.e. the variations and higher rep stuff). Have a look at some of @PWard 's posts where he talks about it. I have found that I am doing days 1 and 2 of the 4 Day Hyp (competition lift days) in about 60 minutes and days 3 and 4 (variation lift days) in about 50 minutes. It can be done.

Yes weights used will be moderated, but the volume is there. You seem to have the right idea.

Also, congratulations on kiddo no3. My kiddo no2 is coming in May so I am with you there.

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There are some on this board who managed the 12WS in 75 minutes.

Thanks for confirming, this thought occurred to me since the Bridge was taking me 2 hrs+ (when I was resting 3-5 minutes between everything).

I definitely want to get my hands on 4-day Hyp for next week. Or at least try to turn my 3-day into a 4-day. Good to hear the workouts can be done so quickly.

My kiddo no2 is coming in May

Congrats to you as well, enjoy your man-to-man coverage while you can! Moving into zone has been a wild ride for us.

Thanks again.

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Confirmed that I did the 12 week strength in under 75 minutes no problem. I also do much more volume now than 12 WS in 90 minutes or under. I can’t fathom how the bridge, which is still relatively low volume, could take anyone 2 hours. That’s just crazy, haha. My secret is really just to keep warmups and rest periods to a minimum. Also, there’s no need to warm up for the 3rd lift of the day, as you’re already “warm”. Alan Thrall has some tips in this recent video that I’ve used forever to keep my training times contained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgfuQt9df2k I’ve learned over time that keeping warmups and rest periods to a minimum has no effect on my performance. Matter of fact, Leah has been programming my 3rd lift of the day lately with 2 minute rest periods, and I find virtually no RPE difference in these lifts than in the past when I used 3 minute rest periods. Warming up and resting above the minimum is really just placebo. If you have the time and patience, placebo your heart out. But if you are like me and your time is a bit more constrained, then it’s time test your self and start trimming back to find the minimum dose of placebo that you need to be successful.

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I used to be that guy taking 2 hours to do a workout on The Bridge, ha, cuz I’d rest 5 minutes, rest between warmups, play on Instagram, catch my breath, “it takes 5 mins to get all your ATP back”, etc. The Alan Thrall video PWard posted is a good one. It really didn’t take much time at all to adapt to much shorter rest periods and no rest at all for warmups, and workouts are generally 75-90 minutes now (75 if I’m focused, 90 of I’m lazy), doing volume similar to that of the 12WK strength.

I’ve actually done some of Alsruhe’s programs before. Although they are efficient and quick with some intense conditioning, it really lacked any substantial amount of volume to drive long term success, and I found I didn’t really respond much to it. I have not looked at his conjugate program, so maybe it’s different.

I really do recommend continuing BBM programming if you can manage to get some templates. And as Teddy mentioned, this is a really, really long term game, you gotta just keep pounding away!

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Thank you both for weighing in. I will definitely be grabbing the 12WS program from BBM later this year. Their programs are a very small investment, the trouble is, I’ve invested about 2grand in a basement gym over the last 3-months so I really need to cool it for a bit! Good to know I’m not making any obvious mistakes (other than a tendency to under-rate RPE which I’ve been “working on” for a few months now).

Thanks folks.