Strength 2 - BP frequency

Training Q&A [Moderated]
1

Hi all,

I’m new here, and new to RPE. I’m going to give a shot to the Strength 2 template (following a typical linear program until now). I’ve noticed that in both blocks BP frequency is capped at 2 per week. Although the total weekly volume is still high as there are a lot of sets on the pressing days.

Is this by design? Or when progress stalls, should 1-2 more pressing days be added (or be spread out)? I’ve often heard people recommending 3-4 BP days at that level to continue to make progress.

I’ve also noticed that there’s no OHP at all and was wondering if there’s a benefit in adding them on Lower days (Day 1/3). Or will that actually do more harm than good?

If my numbers are relevant, in KG:
Squat 160
BP 105 (paused)
DL 170
OHP 75

The first 3 were in a meet (first one). Had maybe 2.5kg more in me for BP, and 5 more with DL (failed 180). And I started lifting in August of last year.

Thanks a lot!

2

Dan,

Thanks for the post and welcome to the forum!

Regarding frequency, e.g. how often a movement, muscle, or specific modality is trained, it’s mostly a tool to adjust volume and distribute training load. For the former, I am not of the opinion that there are big benefits to be had by increasing frequency without increasing volume. For the latter, I think it’s mostly personal preference, logistics, etc.

Adding more pressing volume may be a good idea if someone has plateaud, but that would be after a thorough assessment of programming and response factors. I do not think strength is developed linearly, and would want to see prolonged stagnation before deciding someone isn’t responding. If I needed to add more volume, one could add more days or more sets. Again, I don’t think frequency makes a big difference in and of itself.

I do not think overhead press transfers very well to the bench press. That said, people can select OHP on Day 2’s 3rd exercise. I would not ADD OHP on top of everything else, no.

3

Makes a lot of sense thanks a lot!

4

I have another question, regarding the Strength 2 program. For Pause Squats this is prescribed for next week:

4 reps @RPE 6 (77%). Repeat weight x sets of 4 to RPE 8. (Cap at 3)

I don’t quite understand that. If first set is RPE 6, the following one won’t be an 8 if it’s a set of 4 with the same weight. What am I supposed to do here?

Thanks a lot!

Edit: Stop once a set hits RPE 8, or after I’ve done 3 total sets, is that the idea?

Another question: Currently, I’m progressing the top set of 5 @ RPE 8 by 2.5kg each week. Back-off work is prescribed as repeating the same weight for sets of 5 to RPE 7, with more sets added as the weeks go on.

This week, I hit 132.5kg for 5 @ 8, followed by 4-4 @ RPE 7 and a single at 145kg @ 7. Next week, I’m supposed to do 3 back-off sets. My question is: if I hit something like 5-4-3 or 5-4-3-3 at RPE 7, do I still add weight the following week, or should I aim to complete more reps across those sets at the same weight before progressing?

Should I always aim to add weight on the single? I can’t quite predict the RPE until I try it. And the single at 7 is hard to tell whether I had 3 or 2 reps in the tank. How important is accuracy here and how can I improve it?

Ty!!

5

4 reps @RPE 6 (77%). Repeat weight x sets of 4 to RPE 8. (Cap at 3)
I don’t quite understand that. If first set is RPE 6, the following one won’t be an 8 if it’s a set of 4 with the same weight. What am I supposed to do here?

You should stop once you hit either RPE 8 for a set of 4 or once you’ve done 3 back-off sets (4 total).

I think there may be some conflict between our idea of progressive overload and yours. While adding 2.5kg every week to the top set of 5 @ RPE 8 is awesome IF IT STAYS RPE 8, I would caution against adding weight every week if the effort is getting harder. Rather, strength may take a little longer to come on board, and it typically happens in spurts rather than linearly. If you’re on a run of strength improvements however, carry on.

As far as when to add weight, you should do so when you’re stronger. The back off performance on one week isn’t really indicative of your strength for the following week, though certainly doing more reps (before reaching RPE 7) is a positive sign compared to doing less.

For both the multi-rep set and the single, I would feel out your performance for that day based on how your warm-ups are going. If they feel “light” or “good” compared to previous weeks, I would plan on adding weight. If they feel about the same, I would either do another, heavier warm up to corroborate my feeling, or do the same weight as you did the last week. If it felt “bad” or “heavy”, I would reduce the weight.

For the single, we typically recommend against using reps in reserve to rate RPE. Instead, it’s more about how hard the effort was as judged by speed and how many times you could add ~ 2-5% more weight. This is discussed in the template’s accompanying eBook, along with a special RPE chart in the RPE charts tab for single-rep efforts.

Finally, and perhaps this will assuage some concern, the weight on the bar is just a tool that we’re using to stimulate the muscle. Adding 2.5kg to your top sets every week, while totally reasonable (if you’re actually getting stronger) and awesome feeling, probably doesn’t work better for improving strength than keeping the weight the same or even reducing the weight by 2.5kg. Reason for this is, muscular strength responds equally well to a relatively wide range of intensities, i.e. 75% 1RM doesn’t work “better” than 70%, and 80% 1RM doesn’t work better than 75%. They’re all about the same as far as driving strength increases.

Instead, we need to add weight to the bar to make sure we don’t fall “out” of the appropriate intensity range. As you get stronger, you will have to add weight to the bar to keep up. For a more extensive discussion on this, see the progressive loading part of the text that accompanied the template and/or check out this article we published:

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6

Thank you for the detailed response! I completely missed that there was an eBook - I’ve now gone through it and also watched one of your podcasts on programming.

Your approach makes perfect sense, and after just two weeks using RPE-based training, I notice a significant difference compared to my previous NLP approach where I was hitting RPE 9-10 every session.

Two questions:

  1. Regarding training sensitivity - how does a template accommodate different individual responses? For example, my deadlift volume has increased dramatically from my previous 2-3 sets/week (eventually plateaued at 170-175kg, BW 82kg) at RPE 9-10 to the current Strength 2 template. Does the RPE 7 back-off work naturally adjust the stimulus for each individual, or should I modify the volume myself (e.g., doing 2 back-offs instead of 3)? I notice I wasn’t doing any laying hamstring curl/RDL before, which was likely a weakness affecting my deadlift.
  2. While I’m currently progressing weekly, I’d like to understand how to handle future plateaus or regressions, given your point about strength gains being non-linear. At what point should we consider it a red flag requiring attention versus normal variation, and when should programming changes be considered? I’m gaining 1kg BW per month and prefer not to increase this rate.

While the article provides valuable insights about progressive loading and adaptation, I’m still unclear about specific timeframes for addressing plateaus and appropriate programming modifications. Specifically:

  1. When using a general template, should volume be initially reduced to avoid desensitization to training?
  2. Or is it better to maintain the prescribed volume to drive greater adaptation from the start?
  3. How should volume be adjusted when plateaus occur?

Could you provide more concrete guidance on managing these programming variables?

Thanks again! I really appreciate all the amazing content you put out. I apologize if these questions have already been addressed in other podcasts or resources that I haven’t yet discovered - I’m still working my way through all the valuable information you’ve shared.

7

Some great questions here. Probably worthy of another article or two.

Regarding training sensitivity or response, it’s pretty challenging to develop a program that is dynamic enough to accommodate everyone, while still being usable. There’s some tech that can allow us to get close via the app, which is something I’ve been working on for years now. It’s not AI like other apps claim (they’re not using AI either), but rather a series of variables we monitor that change the program as needed. The rules are build on current evidence and our experience and would need some updating over time, perhaps based on large data sets that do not exist yet. For another discussion.

The current programming is our best guess for the intended demographic. As you mention, the autoregulation helps manage the training load to what we (the designers) are shooting for. Whether that training load and formulation works well for someone is mostly an educated guess, again based on evidence, collected data, and experience. It should work well for many people, but it definitely won’t work for **all **people. I like the training load of this program as-is and wouldn’t prospectively change it.

Regarding plateaus, it’s mostly an arbitrary line in the sand that a coach would draw regarding “how long is too long” without a demonstrable improvement. To my mind, I would expect to see an improvement in strength performance (by some metric) in ~ 2-3 weeks max for a relatively untrained individual. This also assumes accurate testing to begin with, e.g. not starting artificially light and adding weight. The more highly trained and/or more reduced resources someone has, e.g. sleep, nutrition, environmental inputs, etc., the longer I would stretch that time frame out…maybe up to ~ 5-6 weeks. When it comes to adjustments after a plateau, I think it’s better to think about total training load, which is composed of volume, average intensity, exercise selection, proximity to failure, and so on. We discuss this in some detail in the 80-page ebook (mostly on strength programming) accompanying the Low Fatigue Template.

We also have to discuss the Minimal “Clinically” Important Difference (MCID) in strength, i.e. what amount of strength change is representative of an actual improvement in strength. For example, 0.5% is probably noise, as created by biological and analytical variation. Conversely, a 10% improvement in strength is highly likely to be real, unless someone was sandbagging previously. I think somewhere around 5% is reasonable for the MCID.

If someone isn’t achieving > MCID improvements in strength in the above time frames, I will typically consider a programming change pending feedback on the environment, subjective experience, nutrition, sleep, and so on.

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8

Thank you again for such detailed responses - they’ve been incredibly helpful. I have two follow-up questions:

  1. I’ve noticed a discrepancy between the app and Excel sheet regarding Pause Squats in week 2 of PL Block 1. I assume the app version is correct as it seems more consistent with other exercises that week. Could you confirm this?
  2. Following up on the training sensitivity discussion - I’m relatively new to training (9 months, mostly NLP with RPE 9-10). While I’m only in week 2 of Strength 2, I’ve noticed strength improvements across the board with the low load of week 1, particularly in accessories, where volume increases up to 5 sets (e.g., lying ham curls). Given what you mentioned in the programming podcast about sufficient stimulus for adaptation, I’m wondering about the approach to volume progression:
  • Would it be more beneficial to maintain week 2’s volume (especially for deadlifts) as long as I’m progressing, and only add the third set if progress stalls?
  • Should I implement “fatigue stops” instead?
  • Is there a risk of adding “junk” volume or becoming desensitized to training by following the prescribed volume increases even if I respond to less load? Or does more volume equal more strength gains in the case of this program (since the backoff sets are capped at RPE 7)?
  • Or should I simply run the program as written since you mentioned you wouldn’t prospectively change the training load? I guess I’m mostly looking for the ‘why’.

I’m particularly interested in understanding this in the context of being a relatively new lifter and your point about sufficient stimulus for adaptation.

Thanks again!!

9

Hey Dan,

I do not see a discrepancy on my end between the app or Excel sheet for paused squats. Both say 4 reps @ 6, repeat weight x sets of 4 to RPE 8.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile to speculate about volume progression for program management at this point. Reason being, this is relatively new for you and I would not recommend adjusting the volume of the program. Rather, I would run the program as it is currently laid out. I do not think that junk volume is a thing and I don’t think people can become desensitized to training in a way that attenuates fitness adaptations.

-Jordan

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10

Gotcha, thanks a lot. Will give it a shot as is then.

To clarify, the mismatch is on the 4-Day PL Block 1, on Week 2 Day 3. I see that discrepancy both on the Excel downloaded from the email and the one I can view via the App.

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11

Got it. Now I see the error. I was looking on the 3-day version. The app, as you predicted, is correct. We will send out an update soon!

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12

Thanks again for the catch, @danzsec :clap:

The changes have now been pushed out and should be reflected in both the BBM App and on the Website. :white_check_mark:

13

Thanks you Shawn for keeping it up to date, if you’re already doing that then I’ll let you know of more discrepancies.

Specifically:

  1. For Day 4 Supplemental Bench, the Excel file shows 6 exercise options, but the app only offers 2 choices.
  2. The upper back rear pec dec flye is listed in the Excel file but is not available as an option in the app. Along with 4 more that are on the Excel.
  3. There are several other exercises that appear in the Excel file but are not accessible in the app.

Having everything on the app just as in the Excel would really help, although I know I might be asking for much.

14

Yes, we do not list all exercise options on the app, as it really slows down loading time and people get overwhelmed with the choices. I just list the top two to. three, but we will not be adding all possible options to the app.

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15

Hi again! I have just finished the 8th week of first block and will be changing to the 3 day split for block 2. It was really good!

One issue is I seem to have pushed too hard or something but my left hip flexor got into so much pain after the primary Squat day to the point where on the secondary day I couldn’t even do bodyweight Squat with no pain so I literally did 60kg there for 1 set of Pause Squats and stopped as it was too painful.

I wonder what the right course of action would be as I would like to peak real nice and hopefully get a 4 plate Squat at the end of block 2. How bad is it if I skip squats on deload week if hip flexor is still in pain? Weight wise I plan to get 157.5kg at rpe 7-8 single on week 2 but I must have that pain go by then. So far I am doing light stretches and the pain is lessening as the days go by.

I finished block 2 with Squat 155kg rpe7~, Bench 102.5kg rpe7, Deadlift 175kg rpe6-7

16

I think if your hip is still painful, trying to peak and test your squat is likely ill-advised. I would not plan on skipping the deload squats and then peaking/testing, either.

My advice would be to stick to the program for bench and deadlift. If you’re having significant pain with your squat, a period of rehab for that movement pattern would be advisable.

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17

Finished intensity block!

Got a 190kg @ 9 Deadlift (20kg increase). Then failed 200kg.

115kg @ 8.5 (10kg increase) Pause Bench, then failed 120kg.

BW increased by maybe a KG max. I’m going on a 3 week minicut and will bulk more aggressively as I re-run the program. I’m thinking how to properly do it this time though to get better gains. I feel like I had been undershooting my RPE with the RDL during volume block (maybe 6-7 instead of 8). The deadlift sticking point is mid-shin so weak hamstrings, off the floor it’s fine, and lockout is fast. During intensity block I went for Paused DL instead of RDL which now I’m not sure if it was the right decision.

Two questions:

  1. Was Paused DL the right decision for intensity block secondary pull or should I have stuck with RDL?
  2. On the BP, is my descent too slow and kills strength (video below)? If it is too slow, how can I improve it?

Deadlift 190kg @ 9 video:

BP 115kg @ 8.5 (too slow descent?)

BP 120kg fail where I tried to go down faster but I feel like that actually threw me off and I lost tightness.

I guess my plan going forth is hammer my hamstrings with RDL on secondary pull day and push it to real RPE 8, better to overshoot than undershoot here given my history of undershooting. Then lying ham curls on primary deadlift day, push it too. With BP I guess keep hammering triceps and maybe get better at lowering the bar to the chest faster? (Day 2 will be 1ct Pause Bench, Close Grip BP and Overhead Cable Triceps extensions and Day 4 will be T&G BP, Lat Pull Down, Larsen Bench and Lateral Raises). Does that sounds good? (Strength 2 PL 4 day).

I also will bulk properly this time, hopefully add 2kg BW during the volume block or so. (And hopefully get off 2-3kg in the coming 3 week minicut).

Thanks a lot!!

18

Nice job on the lifts, Dan. How’d the squat go?

As far as your questions, RDL’s aren’t typically my favorite for max strength/skill development right before a test. I like a small deficit pull, paused deads, or deads + bands/chains…something like that.

I think you’d like bench more if you descended faster, which is mostly a practice thing during all bench variations. You’ll have to commit to it, reducing weight if needed, but I think it responds pretty well to practice. 120 also looked too slow on the descent, though the bigger issue to me is that it came down too far forward and needed to both touch higher and have more elbow flare to the side as a result.

I wouldn’t worry about the “gains” difference between rpe 6-7 and RPE 8 on RDL’s. Close enough to work about the same.

Your other variations look fine to me as well :slight_smile:

19

Thanks Jordan! Yes, when I tried to speed it up on 120 I messed up other things. Will be sure to practice this better.

Re Squat: Last I squatted heavy was week 8 of the volume block - 155 @ 7. Due to the injury, I took your advice, as I realized I underestimated that pain, I couldn’t Squat at all the first week of the intensity block (and even the secondary day of last week of volume block). So basically did some rehab for them, at first did half Squats which felt useless (just because it was easy) but at least I got to move a bit with the bar on my back. Then on week 3-4 I could Squat fully with way less pain if the stand was wider. Week 5-6 took Squat out coming into the test day, Leg Pressed instead in a ROM and foot positioning that caused no pain.

Next week I’ll re-run the program and get to fully Squatting again. Will ramp it up slowly again during the cut. The plan is to really focus on that this block. Honestly the plan is to lock in on everything even more now that I have some data on how I respond to this program, and having learned how to use RPE as there was also a learning curve there. It’s actually a big difference from what I knew before and I love it!

20

Sounds like a great plan to me :slight_smile:

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