On the whey-RX tub it says there isn’t a benefit to taking more than one scoop at a time,because the additional protein won’t contribute to MPS. But if this is true, then we can optimize protein intake by taking one scoop of whey RX 3-5 times a day spaced 3-5 hours apart (100g protein), which ya’ll seem to think a person can’t do. Isn’t the whole point of whey that it’s a way to rack up protein on a daily basis without spending too much on calories?
If muscle protein synthesis is maximized in a 220 pound man on 100g (five complete MPS cycles with refractory periods) of high quality whey a day, then why is everybody so worried about getting 1 gram per pound of body weight? Or is it that most proteins require this much to achieve the right number of BCAAs, but since whey is a sort of super protein you could theoretically do it with about half that much total protein (but wouldn’t want to because of fiber/satiety/total calotries/probably lots of other reasons)?
I’m not sure what you mean when you say" which y’all think a person can’t do" when referring to taking a scoop of whey Rx 3-5x/day. I’m certain a person could do it for a period of time, but likely not for life and even then- I’m not sure I would recommend that health wise. Just seems like the best data we have on health with respect to dietary practices involves eating variety of foods.
Yes, one of the benefits of whey protein is that it contains a large concentration of essential amino acids for it’s caloric load. That said, most lean protein sources are fairly low in calories as well.
And to answer your last question, can you describe a non ketogenic diet where a 220lb male takes in 4000 calories per day with only 100g of protein? If not, perhaps you have overlooked something.
Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. It must be incredibly frustrating to explain this kind of stuff to untrained audiences, and the fact that you’ve done it this often for this long is really a testament to your character.
By “which ya’ll seem to think a person can’t do” I meant “which ya’ll seem to think a person can’t do while eating to facilitate training results that are anywhere close to optimal”.
A 220 pound individual who needs to keep his daily intake down to about 2500 (give or take 200 or so) is a much more common situation than a 220 pound lifter who can get away with eating 4000 cal a day. (Even for a 220 pound lifter looking to gain weight, they’d need about 3700 according to the guidelines you referenced in to be a beast, so… I got to admit I’m a little puzzled about where you pulled the 4000 number from).
For these individuals, the primary challenge of dieting is restricting carbs and fats to only so much as is absolutely necessary to make the ENORMOUS amount of protein that these individuals have to consume to maintain muscle mass consistently palatable. Remember, people at bodyfats of 30%+ have to eat HUGE portions of protein relative to their muscle mass, much much much more than someone trying to gain muscle. (If we were the kind of people who could eat several pounds of boiled chicken every single day, well… we probably wouldn’t have gotten fat in the first place, LOL)
The more protein we have to take in in the form of fibrous, physically challenging lean protein sources, the less adherence to diet we’re capable of expecting out of ourselves. To hear that we can do a decent job at protein intake while eating significantly less overall protein gives us a lot more wiggle room in our diets. All I want to know is if A or B is true:
A) I should structure my diet around getting 3-5 doses of 3.5 g leucine spaced 3-5 hours apart.
B) I should structure my diet around getting 220g of protein total per day, in 3-5 doses spaced 3-5 hours apart.
What I can’t understand is why you seem to think it is impossible to achieve A without B, or vice versa.
I don’t know, E- I’ve worked with a great many 220lb lifters and none of them who were actually training were at 2500kCal for maintenance. 3700 in TBAB is an arbitrary starting point, but even a 5’10 guy with 20% BF at 220lbs needs ~ 3200 for maintenance. Anyway, I digress.
Let’s say you have someone who is calorie restricted. Are you suggesting that eating less protein is a good solution despite the overwhelming data to the contrary? I disagree with your assertions about compliance, as that is quite individualized and there are no set rules, certainly not with respect to eating less protein.
You should try and do B, which takes care of A, but you can’t do A without doing B unless you’re only eating whey or similar.
Sorry to bump, but I’ve been tossing and turning thinking about this:
What if I, as a 220 pound lifter, average something like this for nutrition:
meal 1: 55 g protein
meal 2: 55 g protein
meal 3: 20 g protein (3.5g leucine, however)
meal 4: 55 g protein
So that’ll be 185g, while in a calorie deficit. I’m still hitting the fiber minimum and eating a variety of foods, but I’m able to avoid eating calorically expensive foods for one of the day’s meals while still triggering MPS. Are my results going to be much worse than if I clutch out the 55 grams on all four meals?
Let’s just assume that in my particular case, I’m right that doing this helps me keep calories down. Is it worth it, or am i just giving up way too much by coming up short on protein?
Jordan am I correct in thinking that leucine consumption over 3g will signal MPS but if there is insufficient protein for the body to use in repair and growth that increase in MPS is of little use for building muscle? If, for example a person consumed very minimal amounts of protein daily (maybe 0.1g per lb) elevating MPS with BCAAs would do little because the muscles would not have enough protein (even if the leucine content was 3G) to work with. Is this the reason that both total protein consumption and leucine per meal consumption are important. If this makes sense to you.
You wouldn’t want your protein to be less than 1.15g per pound (ignoring the nuances here only to make a point), would you?
Why as a 220 lb person would you be trying to ingest less than, at the very least, the general gist of the recommended protein? Not only is protein the building block of LBM, but it is not your body’s first choice for energy. The calories racked up by carbs and fats are more likely to be stored as fat if they are unused because they are your body’s first choice (carbs over fats) - another reason why those are to be titrated over protein. I am sure there is a lot more to this than what I just gave, but for a young lifter trying to lose weight who is not obese, I think I’m mostly right here. I trust Jordan will check me if I am not. Sorry, Dr., if you have to
Look dude, I just ran those numbers through the USDA nutrition database and came up with those numbers.
Now, if you add 8 servings of veggies that’s an extra 16g protein and 32g carbohydrate minimum. New numbers would be:
211/282/32
As far as fats, yes you’ll need some amount of fat in your diet for a myriad of different biological functions. 30g for 2000kCal is probably enough for a short period of time unless supplementing with a certain fat, but the point is why? Most foods and food preparation techniques require a certain amount of fat and it can certainly make things more palatable, in addition to providing energy. So, if you just want to be a contrarian and say- Hey man I don’t need anymore fat in order to lose weight…that’s fine, but I think trying to do the diet you’re suggesting is less likely to be sustainable or doable without a bit higher fat intake. Certainly much easier to type on the Internet than do.
Now look- if you want to keep screwing around here and try to prove to me that you can eat a diet with less protein and lose weight with BETTER results than higher protein- be my guest. We’ll await a full report, but there’s already data on this. Next, if you’re trying to convince me that your compliance is going to be better with 40-50g less protein than originally recommended- again, be my guest. It’s not gonna happen. So really, I’m not sure what the point of your posts are. I’ve given you the advice that I think is useful and explained why you’re incorrect…I think we should move on.
I won’t speak for Jordan, but I think your sourcing for those macros might be a bit sketchy. I wouldn’t trust much outside of the USDA or food packaging labels.
8 servings of veggies? 32g of fat? Bro I think you need to read this: