My journey into becoming strong, concerns that I have for my future endeavors.

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1

Hey! I’ve found myself in a bit of a position as of late and I’m looking for advice for my future in lifting.

Link to a post I made on the starting strength Subreddit a few weeks ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/StartingStr…e_where_to_go/

Reddit tl:dr My linear progression was scuffed, started to stall after 2 months of consistent training and hard-gaining 4000~ kcal/day (after a year~ of not doing the program), 39-inch waist, 205 lbs at 5”7, not that strong, wasn’t sure where to go.

I essentially got two forms of advice. One was figure out the diet, continue grinding LP. The other was figure out the diet, transition to intermediate programming (the bridge), get some of that fat off, work from there.

I decided to go with the latter ending my linear progression at;

Weight 210 lbs, Height 5”7, Waist (around belly button) 39”, 17 yr old male

Squat 265 3x5, Deadlift 295 1x5 (305 1x2), OHP 115 (deload from 125) 3x5, Bench 175 (deload from 185) 3x5
My numbers aren’t optimal, but I’m looking at the long-term and I personally wasn’t comfortable with gaining more weight and was tired of spinning my wheels.

Now here I am, two weeks into the bridge version 1.0. I’m looking further into the future and had some more questions as to where I should be headed.

Progress: Waist is down 2 inches, eating 2550 kcal/day weight from 210 to 198 (likely has to do with water weight because it came off fast). Sleep is 8 hrs plus a day. I’m getting at least 160 grams of protein a day, the rest of my calories from a not-so-consistent mixture of fat and carbs. The programming on the bridge is really fun, I’m enjoying the addition of different rep ranges, rack pulls, rows, higher deadlift volume, etc. The addition of cardio is enjoyable as well. My press has dropped though, likely from dicking around with press 2.0/not executing properly. I’ll be going back to strict press for my next workout. Recovery doesn’t seem to be a problem even on the deficit. At least it hasn’t been so far. I haven’t made any strength gains on the program (only two weeks in). Still struggling with the “not strong enough” thought process, but sticking to it, experimenting with RPE, and working on discipline at the same time. I’m looking into the future however, and that’s where my questions lie. By the end of The Bridge, assuming I lose about 2lbs/wk I’ll be at 188~lbs. I’d like to get down to 175-180 and get back on a slight surplus as well as progression oriented programming. What would you recommend after The Bridge? I’ve been looking into 5/3/1 and it’s intriguing to me. looks variable, maintainable for a long time, and fun. I’m also considering the HLM template, the endurance template, and maybe even the Press template (I really enjoy pressing even though I suck at it). I’ll still have ~10lbs to lose after the bridge. Should I raise calories, stick to a 1lb wk deficit and move on to a strength progression oriented mindset? What’s your individual opinions on 5/3/1? Any other advice for my situation? I.e things I should be thinking about, where I’m headed, general lifting experience advice, books etc…

Thanks again for all of your time contributions to my concerns.

Another consideration is that I would very much like to compete in powerlifting or strengthlifting in the future. Preferably in the 175lb~ weight class. This will be down the road for me though.

Before I started LP I was a borderline anorexic/skinny highschooler chasing abs. Got down to like 135 on p90x before I realized it was becoming an issue. Reading about this stuff and becoming more involved in the community has lead me to the realization that this is a passion of mine. The benefits of being strong, combatting old age, everything. I really want to work in this field and have decided to show people the benefits of this lifestyle. As well as learning from my mistakes and helping people in similar positions as I was. Hopefully, I won’t turn out to be one of the frauds Rip has criticized.

tl:dr After the bridge will still be 10lbs heavy, where should I be going, what’s a good mindset that I can adopt, general advice from you experienced lifter folks.

2

Ok, first off, you’ve only been lifting a couple of months. I wouldn’t worry about your strength just yet. You have plenty of time to fix that. It’s ok to not be a genetic hyper-responder, most of us aren’t. You really have to keep a long term view on strength. I think you made the right call to transition to weight loss and The Bridge. That being said, your protein is low. Especially in a deficit having your protein up is super important, so you don’t lose muscle mass. I would increase your protein to ~200g/day, reducing carb/fat calories in line.

Jordan wrote a popular article on 5/3/1 on the SS website. You could look that up. I can give you my own personal experience with 5/3/1… I lost strength on it. Do you know how frustrating it is to train hard 4 days per week for months and watch yourself actually regress??? It was terrible! Also, it’s arbitrary load management of adding a set amount each month is subpar at best and completely inadequate at worst. I would not personally recommend 5/3/1. It’s volume and intensity balance are simply not good.

If your strength is not going up, odds are you need more volume. The Bridge, while a step up from SS, is still relatively low volume, especially on the upper body. Once you finish The Bridge, I would likely point you down the path of either the 12 week strength or 12 week press alternated with the 4 day hypertrophy, if you can fit the extra lifting day in your schedule. I think you will respond much better to a higher volume program, given the history you’ve given us. As for your composition, I would try to get down into the lower teens body fat percentage prior to considering a bulk. When you do bulk, keep it slow. No more 4k calories per day, haha. I think you’ve already learned that lesson though. Keep in mind that you can’t get shredded, jacked, and strong at the same time. You have to go through phases where you change focus, and over time by doing that you can accomplish all 3.

3

I read somewhere that .8/lb of lean body mass was as much as you needed. What is your opinion on this? More chicken breast is not an issue though.

Will check this out when I get a few minutes, thanks.

What version of 5/3/1 did you run?

Fitting an extra day into my schedule shouldn’t be a problem. I’m currently part timing in gen-eds so I’ve got time on my hands. As far as calorie restriction goes, considering that I’m an early-intermediate I should be able to make strength gains on a slight deficit, correct me if I’m wrong. Would it be okay to start the 12 week/4 week cycle on the 1lb or less a week deficit. I’ll look into both of these templates

4

In a bulk you could probably get away with that. In a cut though, especially since you’re losing 2lb/wk, I personally would play it better safe than sorry. There are also no negatives to eating more protein than you need, but there are negatives to eating too little. So I would personally err on the side of more than less. In the To Be A Best article Jordan recommends 1.2g/lb for males in weight loss phase. I currently am eating 1.1g/lb in a slow bulk.

I ran 5’s progression with 5x5 first set last. I also did a crap ton of assistance work as well. The program just simply didn’t work for me. Not enough volume, not optimal intensities, and too low of frequency. I’ve never seen anyone other than hyper-responders (that would gain strength from simply looking at a barbell) get much out of 5/3/1.

Yes, provided your training variables are right, you should be able to gain some strength on a deficit. You’re not going to make fast strength gains, but your strength should still trend up over the course of the program. And yes you could run those two programs on the deficit. Actually, the hypertrophy templates are very popular for cutting phases because of the higher volume and higher amounts of GPP/conditioning. The only catch with the plan to run both of those in a deficit is that I wouldn’t stay in a deficit for the last 4 weeks of 12 week strength. Its too low of volume and in a deficit I don’t think you would be taking enough sets and reps to maintain muscle mass. You have 2 options there, either go back up to maintenance calories for a month while you peak and test, or skip the last 4 week peak/test block altogether and instead swap to the hypertrophy template at that point.

5

Worked this out with his parameters in the article.

Weight: 195
Goal : Fat Loss
Calories : 2250 calories
Protein: 240 grams
Carbs: 195
Fat: 52 grams

It’s a shame that you couldn’t make progress on 5/3/1. I was considering doing Simple Strength with fsl 3x8, or Boring But Big (Boring But Big). I would imagine that 50+ reps volume per lift per week would be sufficient, but my knowledge is obviously lacking otherwise I wouldn’t be here. It is to my understanding that intensity is highly variable depending on the individual. What do you consider adequate volume?

Thanks for the advice. Is there a better way to quote specific fragments? other than copy and pasting between the quote blocks?

6

Well the problem isn’t just volume, or just intensity. You need the proper dose of volume at the proper intensity. You have to look at both variables (and frequency as well) and how they play together when judging your volume. In 5/3/1 too many of your reps are so sub maximal that they are basically warmups. You get 1 reasonably heavy set per exercise per week, then a bunch of useless junk volume. Generally, about 70% of 1rm is what has been shown in the scientific literature as the floor for strength adaptations. In 5/3/1 you’re only getting the 1 set per week in that range (~80-90% of 90% of your 1rm). Not to mention the fact that the arbitrary loading is ridiculous.

You’re much better off sticking with BBM programming, where every set is going to be a quality set from both a volume and intensity standpoint. You’ve already learned the tools you need to succeed, I’m not sure why you would want to change to 5/3/1 now? How many elite level competitors has Wendler coached? 0. How many elite level powerlifters train with 5/3/1? Not a single one that I’m aware of. Look at the resume’s of the BBM and RTS coaches in comparison. Many world champions have trained this way. If strength is your goal, you’re already in the right place. The grass is simply not greener with 5/3/1. Alan Thrall also did a video quite awhile back about his experiences with 5/3/1 in comparison to BBM programming. That’s another valuable source of comparison. I wouldn’t advise anyone to run 5/3/1. It really is a shame that 5/3/1 gets so much attention on Internet forums that are not based on science based training (cough cough Reddit and T-Nation) because like most things in life, it simply does not live up to the internet hype.

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7

I read Jordan’s article on 5/3/1 and the TM. For the article Jordan looked at the Trimuverate template of 5/3/1. I think I understand his argument against the program in general. Firstly volume, he states that it’s “severely lacking in frequency for optimal muscle growth” additionally the extra volume (from accessories) at low intensity creates unnecessary, debilitating soreness. Because of this, the accessory work is excessive and redundant volume for an early intermediate lifter. The section he talks about intensity is where I’m getting a little confused. 5/3/1 recommends starting light, and as long as you hit 5 reps on the 1+ day in given lift, you increase upper body training maxes by 5lbs, lower body by 10lbs. Jordan states in the article that “Low intensity (70-80% of 1RM) will drive strength progression provided the volume is high enough, and 5/3/1 doesn’t get anywhere close to this”. It was my understanding that 5/3/1 starts low (calculating lifts off of 85-90% of your 1RPM, a “training max”) so that the lifter can adjust to the additional volume. The intensity then slowly creeps up (over multiple cycles) beyond the arbitrary “training max” into that 70-80% of 1RPM range and perhaps even higher. Essentially, the training max that you established gets closer to your actual 1RPM as you cycle through the program. When the intensity reaches the >70% of 1RPM why would this not result in strength adaption? Of course, this training max progression is limited by the 5 reps during the 1+ week. If the 5 reps are not obtained you do not increase your training max (you actually lower it). I’m not sure where that puts the intensity, but that might be where the problem lies. If it does result in strength adaption, then the accessory lifts seem to serve a not optimal, but still a hypertrophy purpose.

[quote=“PWard, post:6, topic:4210, username:PWard”]
In 5/3/1 you’re only getting the 1 set per week in that range (~80-90% of 90% of your 1rm)
[/quote] As your training max increases, it gets to be about 1 set low intensity, 1 set medium intensity, 1 amrap set high intensity (3 total in that strength range) per lift per week. With the addition of the “redundant” volume from the accessories. I’m not sure what appropriate volume for adaption looks like, but people make progress on this. Another thing that I’m confused about is the accessory thing. What is considered to be appropriate tonnage for accessories? If 5x10 for instance is too infrequent for hypertrophy, not intense enough for strength gain, and too much volume to be optimal for muscle protein synthesis, could the tonnage simply be adjusted to make the program more effective? Has Wendler not thought this through?

It’s upsetting, as I was excited to try it out. It’s clear to me now that it is far from optimal. However, I do think the program deserves credit as you can find people who have been incredibly successful. You can also find those who it didn’t work at all for. I don’t know if this is due to lack of understanding of the program (as many on tnation would argue), or due to the fact that the program is innately flawed, as Jordan argues. It’s likely a mixture of both, as well as the availability of lots of outdated information. It is important to note that it does work for some people, for year/s at that, thus it should not be dismissed entirely. I think part of it’s appeal is brainless simplicity that has the potential the be ran for a long time and which makes you stronger. Not everyone is looking to be 100% optimal thus I still see proper 5/3/1 as an option. I can also see how a dedicated person would be confused by another’s lack of desire to be optimal, which is understandable in and of itself.

Overall, I derived from the article that 5/3/1 is far from optimal, I believe when/if programmed correctly it can be effective. All of that being said, I’m looking to get strong and do so optimally. I believe that the best way available for me to do this, is through Barbell Medicine programming. I’ve been enjoying the Bridge, so I’m sure I’ll enjoy their other stuff. They seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to putting a program together. That being said after a few cycles of barbell medicine stuff, I will probably end up trying 5/3/1 to see if I like it. Which I may regret, but fudge it dude.

If there are any flaws in my logic please point them out. If anything this has been a well-needed thought exercise.

8

If someone is a hyper-responder to training, are they going to get stronger on 5/3/1? Yes. If someone is an average responder to training, are they going to get stronger on 5/3/1? Maybe a little. If someone is a below average responder to training, are they going to get stronger on 5/3/1? No. Are there better options for everybody that will get more results faster than 5/3/1? Yes.

This is true… however it takes months to get there. Why waste months of suboptimal training, just to get to the point that you reach optimal training? And… just as soon as your intensities are good, you quickly wind up too heavy as you keep arbitrarily adding weight to the bar until the wheels fall off. How is this optimal? Or even a “good” thing? Volume and intensity is a balancing act. Why we train with RPE is to ensure that we get the proper dosage of volume and intensity every single training session. You specifically mentioned that your main goal is strengh, so why would you voluntarily waste months of time? There are plenty of more optimal training styles out there. If you don’t like the BBM style there’s always RTS, Greg Nuckols, Juggernaut, RP, Team 3DMJ, and many others that have different training styles that are all much better than 5/3/1. Any of those coaches/organizations I mentioned above all use science based training methods. Wendler does not. Wendler uses “bro science”.

The biggest problems with Wendler’s accessories is the exercise selection and lack of direction on intensity. He leaves intensity completely up to the trainee. Most trainees are going to get this wrong. He also has people doing things that are too non-specific to the main lifts to fully benefit them. Now, there is definitely room for these general movements over the course of a training plan. But they shouldn’t be the bread and butter of your assistance work all year round. 5x10 in and of itself is an ok scheme for hypertrophy. But that’s only looking at volume, and as such is short-sighted. What about the frequency? Intensity? Exercise selection? Variation? Etc. Even looking at tonnage isn’t a particularly useful metric in and of itself without context. You have to look at all the variables as a whole. You can’t judge a recipe based solely on one or two ingredients, you need judge them when they are fully prepared as a whole meal.

I would also give this Alan Thrall video a watch as he does a comparison between 5/3/1 and BBM programming, from his own experience in working both programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3BpGXnhBk

9

Alright, alright. 5/3/1 sucks. Thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it. I will purchase the 12 week strength program before my bridge ends. Then you’d reccomend cycling this with the 4 week hypertrophy? How long is this maintainable, and what other programs have you done that you’ve enjoyed?

I like rowing and weighted chins, will these fit into the program?

10

Alright, alright. 5/3/1 sucks. Thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it. I will purchase the 12 week strength program before my bridge ends. Then you’d reccomend cycling this with the 4 week hypertrophy? How long is this maintainable, and what other programs have you done that you’ve enjoyed?

11

Yeah cycling the 12 week strength and 4 day hypertrophy is a good call. You can definitely fit rowing and weighted chins into the GPP days “upper back” work section. The hypertrophy template especially has a royal ton of GPP work. I believe both programs also have the Pendlay row programmed in one weekly slot as well. How long will this work? Depends. You should be able to get a few cycles out of it at least. Then you have the basic skeleton so you can start modifying the templates to add more sets in, change assistance exercises, etc to keep it novel.

As for other common programs I have personally run that I enjoyed, I did like Greg Nuckols Average To Savage, though I didn’t respond quite as well to that as I have to BBM programming.

12

[quote=“PWard, post:11, topic:4210, username:PWard”]
You can definitely fit rowing and weighted chins into the GPP days “upper back” work section. The hypertrophy template especially has a royal ton of GPP work.
[/quote] GPP in the bridge is a timed exercise, some ab work, then some light cardio. If I’m correct, GPP (General Physical Preparedness) is an opportunity to get some of the “bro” out and burn some extra calories. In the Bridge Jordan stated that the 7-minute GPP AMRAP exercise would need to be “titrated up every few weeks”. I’m not exactly sure what he means by this. Additional weight, additional time? I suppose I don’t have a good understanding of what exactly GPP is/its purpose. Could you shine light on this for me? I would like to progress my weighted chins.

Glad to hear that pendlay rows are already a slot.

The program is only 4 days long? or longer 4 days/wk?

Is the press focused on significantly in the 12 wk strength template?

13

This may shed some light on GPP and the programming layout across the week. https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/forums/unmoderated-forums/programming-discussion/26610-8-min-back-and-abs-help

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14

“Titrated up” could mean additional weight, additional time, or reducing rest to squeeze more sets/reps in the alloted time frame. There’s a lot you can do with it, really. The purpose of the GPP work as density blocks is to squeeze a lot of volume in without taking up a ton of training time, as the program as is written will already have you in the gym 6 days a week for 1-2 hours a pop. You could certainly swap out the density blocks for more formal set/rep schemes, but it would be at the cost of additional training time. GPP days are meant to fill the gaps that the lifting days leave out: body parts that don’t get as much work, conditioning, extra hypertrophy work, work capacity training, etc. Plus, they are a good mental break. They allow you to have a little fun and experiment, if you so choose.

Both the 4 day hypertrophy and the 12 week strength/press are 4 days per week of compound training with 2 GPP days, so 6 days total per week. Hypertrophy templates are 8 weeks long. FWIW I recommended the 4 day templates over the 3 day templates for you because judging by the history you gave me I thoroughly believe that the extra volume in the 4 day templates will really help to drive progress.

12 week strength is bench specialized. It has 1-2 press slots per week. The 12 week press is the opposite, it’s press specialized with only 1-2 slots of benching added. You could choose one or the other, or even cycle these as well if you want to give equal love to both press and bench (ex: hypertrophy > 12 WS > hypertrophy >12WP). It’s really hard to focus on both bench and press at the same time in post-novice training. Most of us pick one or the other to really focus on. Those that want to share the love between the two typically periodize it like I described above, with cycling discrete phases dedicated to really driving one up, while putting the other on maintenance mode.

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15

My friend, relax. PWard did a great job with answering your questions so I’ll expound on something

It’s sounds like you’re really excited about training which is a good thing! You’re young and it’s great to have long term thinking and being “macro”. Don’t get too caught up in thinking too much about the future and neglecting the present and the weights on the bar right in front of you

I love that you’re asking questions and wanting to know what to do next. For right now, my advice would be to complete the bridge and figure it out what program to do next based on your response to the bridge.

Continue to go in the gym and get your lifts in, stay consistent. Looking forward to hearing about your progress!

16

I have been a big fan of the 5\3\1 program but I found it hard to grow on it. This was before I did SSLP. I had been lifting a year and a half and thought I would do the program and get strong. I found I lifted bigger weights but didn’t get that far with pressing and by the end felt out of shape. I did like the quickness I could do a workout but in the end I didn’t feel that I had much to show for it.

17

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18

Poobers,
Like one or two other people have said, you’re going to be OK and progress will take time. Also, congrats on your weight loss, keep trucking. I think there’s an Allen Thrall video of him (like 200lbs lean) saying he’s only eating like 265 g of protein a day - his rational was "is this one scoop of protein powder why I’m not the strongest guy in the world? Keep hitting your daily calories, eat enough fiber and veggies, and have enough of the food you like. I really recommend listening to some BBM podcasts if you haven’t binged them already.
After a couple of months training, like you have, I would check out General S&C, Strength l, or maybe Powerbuilding 1. Those are all written for people who have been lifting less than a year. Pick a goal, and choose programs based on that. You’re going to want variety (for sanity and continued progress). I would steer clear of HLM, as that’s one of their oldest legacy templates, and BBM’s thinking has changed a lot. Heck, if you want a bit more indepence in how you plan you training, the Low Fatigue template comes with like 80 pages on program troubleshooting and like four training plans across a variety of experience levels.

I understand you’re young and might not have cash for several programs - maybe a Christmas present? If not, read and listen to Jordan/Austn’s more recent strength training podcasts, articles, and instagram posts. @Claire_barbellmedicine 's insta has a few great posts that will help, including one on how to organize your lifts for 3 & 4 day programs.
Good luck