I listened to the program podcasts. With that in mind, would if not be more appropriate to deadlift 1x5 for the entirety of the SSNLP program rather than alternating with power cleans, rows, or chin-ups and back extensions?
Even if you did only switch out the Wednesday deadlift with another option, would you not be reducing deadlift volume? Or does the logic that deadlifts become too heavy to recover from still hold up as an argument?
I assume you’re referring to this programing: Starting Strength Training Programs
Back extensions aren’t included in SSNLP programing. For a true novice, i’d leave them out for now.
The logic here is that in SSNLP, your’re basically deadlifting your PR every week - which is very heavy (for the novice). SS philosophy is that (once you reach their phase 3) you can’t deadlift your PR more than once per week. And from their massive amount of experience, a novice can still make gains deadlifing once per week. Once you stall on SSNLP, you’ll have to increase your deadlift volume, but (per BBM) you use RPE@6, 7, 8, or 9 so you’re not grinding PRs every week that are too difficult to recover from.
I deadlifted Mondays and Fridays for the latter half of my LP with no issue. I did power cleans on Wednesdays.
Yes, Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression (SSNLP).
Back extensions are included in at least one SSNLP template. See Practical Programming for Strength Training.
In the base SSNLP template, you are PRing every workout, not just every week. It is SS’s philosophy that after a couple weeks or more, the deadlift becomes too heavy for a novice to recover from in 48 hours. SS reduces the frequency of deadlifting from 3 times a week to twice (like @Adam_a did), 1.5 times, once, or even .8 times a week.
Barbell Medicine argues that if a novice misses reps or form breaks down significantly, there was not enough stress (or the stress wasn’t appropriate) from the last workout to disrupt homeostasis, assuming nutrition and sleep are in check. They further argue that reducing volume is simply tapering rather than developing.
So in the base SSNLP template, you are performing 15 working reps across weekly. If you introduce power cleans, rows, and/or back extensions and pull-ups to take the place of deadlifts, are you reducing deadlift volume, or are do the exercises count toward deadlift volume?
They count towards pulling volume, yes. Does that mean it’s the most optimal way to accrue pulling volume? No, I don’t believe so.
Ok. So do you think that Jordan et al would have a novice deadlift 1x5 through the entirety of the lp and just switch to the Bridge once the deadlift has stalled, or would they have a different tweak?
I honestly don’t know. You could always ask in the training forum.
I suspect his advice is to just switch to the bridge. The 2 extra weeks of progress you get don’t really matter in the long run and as someone who attempted to squeeze every last bit of life out of the novice program you just get beat to hell and end up having to reset anyway with new programming, because you’re so fatigued. If it were me I would just pull 3x per week, or 2x with rows 3x8 @7 @8 @9 in the middle and switch when it stopped working.
I’d guess they would have them deadlift one day, but add a back-off set. Do AMRAP chins/pullups the other day. And do power cleans or pendlay rows the third.
Except the SS community changes the deadlifting in the first 2-4 weeks. Most people get 12 weeks out of the program.
I tried asking once, but it was not approved for discussion. I’ll try again, though, and I’ll link it if it gets approved.
Thanks for the discussion.
Ok, but why? I personally think that Jordan et al would just add on pull-ups at the end of the workout twice a week based on what I’ve seen Jordan post on Instagram. I believe I’ve also heard or read from Jordan that the oly lifts were more of a display of strength rather than a contributor, and unless your competition includes them, you can spend your time and effort more wisely. I am subject to be wrong, however, and if you can shed some light, I’d appreciate it.
Right, good point. I honestly don’t know what they would prescribe.
The issue is that we don’t know exactly how much volume is needed to drive progress for a novice, mainly because it depends on the individual and other nuances. The SS paradigm that deadlifts require more recovery after 2-4 weeks is wrong, however. So, in the context of a novice lifter, the question is: more volume vs less volume to drive progress, not more volume vs more recovery. That is something hard to answer in a general sense I think.