Limit to Cutting: When does it become counterproductive?

Hello again! I am a 27 years old male, 5’7", 136.1lbs, neck 13.5", waist 29.75". My best guess is that I am in the 13-15% body fat range, closer to 13% if I really had to pin it down from photos and measurements.

I have a general question that is related to my specific situation. I have read across many sources that a general range of 10-20% body fat is appropriate for cutting and bulking, sometimes I’ve read it constrained to 10-15%, and I understand that maintenance is a useful tool as a beginner as recomp is physically possible and dietary adherence may not be high, but less efficient past that.

I have also, however, heard that it is a mistake to cut, the less advanced you are. One of the justifications is that muscle mass takes time to build, but body fat is quick to drop; I admit I don’t understand this reasoning as much as it seems to me it would be the same either way, dropping body fat before bulking or after bulking. As in, losing 3lbs more of fat, just makes more room for adding more tissue down the line.

My main question is: for the purposes of long-term muscle and strength gain, is it wrong to drop past a certain BMI or weight while cutting to allow for a long runway to bulk, e.g. for a year? I know at Tracking body comp. (esp. avoiding too low body fat) without measuring body fat %, I see that it would be a BMI of 19-20, or symptoms associated with RED-S, which makes me that past that, it must really not matter.

On the personal side:

I started at a much heavier body weight and body fat % (210lbs @ 30%+ body fat) over a year ago, so I started to cut. Having been overweight for nearly all of my life, I had no real sense of judging my body, I had trouble judging where I was, just that I was chubby. I have regained some muscle and strength from my LP before lifting, and have even been able to make some gains despite the deficit. I also think I’ve been able to more accurately assess how much fat I have on my frame just by having photos of myself at different weights.

Having been overweight/obese lifelong, leaning out for the first time has been a really interesting and almost rewarding process despite the challenges and the very slow strength gain. Strength was always one of my goals in pursuing lifting, but I have to admit that seeing my serratus definition or vascularity in my arms has been… just cool.

My overarching goal has always been to gain weight and to get stronger. I want to be much heavier than I am now, but I want to do it more intelligently than I did before; so my reasoning was, in order to gain weight, lose weight first and try to learn about my body at different body fat %s, as much as possible. I have learned that I carry much less muscle than I thought I did, although I think I do have some. I also understand I have a lot of it to gain. I have been cutting to lose 0.8-1% of my bodyweight per week so far, an average of ~1.1lbs a week, and thought to continue it through to 11%, so I can finally feel I accomplished my goal of leaning out. I admit sheepishly that the allure of seeing my abs is a little attractive. However, I don’t know if this is ultimately foolish and I should really just swap to maintenance now and start bulking, as maybe another month spent cutting is contrary to my long-term goal. Having cut for so long, it feels good to chase the next goalpost, but seeing how far 136lbs is from 165lbs or even 181lbs gives me pause. I’m not sure if I would feel happy to reach 11-12% and to not see my abs, but I would feel satisfied to know that I have undergone the process of leaning out and know what it entails; it would feel like I accomplished something, and I can close the book on an effort that feels it has taken far longer than it should have.

Thank you, and apologies about the length/theme, I’m sure you’ve felt you answered this question before, genuinely made an effort to look through, but still thought it was worth asking as I feel unsure.

Thanks for the post. I think the way I’d answer your specific question depends on how you answer the following:

What do you want to get out of your training in the next year or so?

Thank you for your reply!

I would really like to drive my squat, bench, overhead press, deadlift, and weighted pullup over the next year, as much as possible, as efficiently as possible! My secondary goals, if there’s time, are to obtain some skills on the rings (like a straddle back lever), and third is hypertrophy, which I think is related to strength anyways in that my understanding is that, lean mass development is related to maximizing strength potential.

I don’t have any particular desire to hem my body into a particular body composition over the next year. My reasoning is that if I can bulk for as long as possible, I can maximize my strength gains, in a reasonable way. The painful thing I know now is that bulking from an overweight BMI to obesity with aggressive weight gain, even if the program is intense, doesn’t really work all that well for getting strong :sob:, so I will definitely not be doing that again, haha.

Seems like none of this is related to leaning out, so I don’t know know that we need to really address that directly. I will say that no, leaning out doesn’t improve bulk outcomes as far as proportion muscle:fat gained. That’s mostly influenced by genetics, training, and nutrition. It doesn’t really change much for individuals though with lower or higher body fat. Losing 4% weight per month is also quite aggressive alongside a performance goals.

I would not generally recommend obtaining a BMI > 30 during a bulk, though I don’t think you’ll should get anywhere near that.